Forum Index > Stewardship > Mountain Goats relocated from ONP show up at Rattlesnake Ledge
Previous :: Next Topic  
Author Message
Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist



Joined: 07 Sep 2018
Posts: 152 | TRs
Location: Seattle
Anne Elk
  Top

BrontosaurusTheorist
PostMon Oct 22, 2018 9:24 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski -  I forget how many years it's been since a pair of scrub jays began showing up to the feeder in my yard.  It was before the latest neighborhood development craze here in Seattle, and a couple years after I bought my place, so between 2001-2006.  I'd never seen one before and had to look it up, but my reference book wasn't very comprehensive - I think it's where I got the idea that scrub jay range was normally only as far north as the Columbia. Subsequent research turned up a website with pics of a guy feeding scrub jays from his hand, which was pretty surprising, considering the ones visiting my yard were even more skittish than crows.

The Canada goose population in the city (at least around Green Lake) has been significantly reduced, if not completely eradicated by a city extermination campaign some years ago - I think it was a combo of spraying the eggs, and goose capture.  The poop problem at the park was bad enough that the collective will to take care of it overcame any objections.

Re the barred owl - I think I read something a while back re a proposal to shoot them, to help the spotted owls. Don't know if that idea went anywhere.

--------------
"There are yahoos out there.  It’s why we can’t have nice things."  - Tom Mahood
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski
><((((°>



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 9554 | TRs
Location: tacoma
Ski
  Top

><((((°>
PostMon Oct 22, 2018 10:47 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Anne Elk wrote:
The Canada goose population in the city (at least around Green Lake) has been significantly reduced, if not completely eradicated by a city extermination campaign some years ago - I think it was a combo of spraying the eggs, and goose capture.  The poop problem at the park was bad enough that the collective will to take care of it overcame any objections.

At Wapato Park in South Tacoma, the Canada Goose fouled the lake and the park to the degree you literally couldn't walk anywhere with 50 yards of the lake without stepping in goose crap. They sprayed the eggs and started writing citations to a few locals who were feeding them pillow-sized bags of day-old bread on a daily basis. The situation is under control, but the lake - the largest lake in Tacoma - is still a virtual cesspool and unusable for swimming.

I had to pull my bird feeder down because of the rats and raccoons around here. Sometimes when those two Scrub Jays show up I'll toss them a few nuts - they really like almonds and filberts. wink.gif

--------------
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Pyrites
Member
Member


Joined: 16 Sep 2014
Posts: 1071 | TRs
Location: South Sound
Pyrites
  Top

Member
PostTue Oct 23, 2018 12:19 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
I had a previous superintendent tell me the NPS wasn’t going to do anymore about the goats before the Elwha project was essentially complete. I pretty sure this was after the first wave removal of ca half the population. Capacity was mentioned, but implied with that bureau speak they are masters of was anything  that was going to have possible political downside to the Park was on hold, and that this came from above the Oly NPS level.

When you’re getting the biggest chunk of change, lawyers, political will, ...., you don’t get to say, and can I have a third piece of (ski’s) pie.

Best.

Pyrites
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 8657 | TRs
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
  Top

Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostTue Oct 23, 2018 12:46 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ummm, pie.  I made one the other day out of frozen apple slices.  It WAS good....mmmmm.

--------------
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
rossb
Member
Member


Joined: 23 Sep 2002
Posts: 1198 | TRs

rossb
  Top

Member
PostTue Oct 23, 2018 1:39 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Overall, I would say this is a huge success. I get why some people wanted to just shoot them, but keep in mind, this is happening. Fairly soon, the goats will be gone. Part of the reason for this is that they found a nice compromise. If they had just shot them, it is highly likely that someone would have filed suit. All it takes is folks to lawyer up, and next thing you know you, they spend years in court, spending millions of dollars, and still have the same problem. Just look up "Burke Gilman Missing Link" if you doubt me. It is just a tiny bit of road (or bike path, if you will) yet fighting over it has dragged out for years. The city has spent more money in court (or writing and rewriting their planning documents) than they ever will actually building the thing. It wouldn't have shocked me if that is the way the big goat kill would have gone down, if they went that direction.

But they didn't. They made it clear that they would kill some goats, but first they would haul as many out as they can. This made it clear to goat fans everywhere that this was as good as it was going to get -- either they accept this, or the next plan is to shoot them all.

Meanwhile, we are actually increasing genetic diversity of the goat population in the Cascades. I would consider this to be a very good thing. Does anyone know of a cheaper way to do that? Yeah, I thought so.

Overall this has been successful. The goats are being removed from a place they never should been at, genetic diversity in the goat population of the Cascades will improve, and we get to see pictures of goats flying around.

This is a way better than the stupid Green Mountain Lookout fiasco, where huge sums of money was spent to rebuild a structure that is less natural than the Olympic goats, and blocks the views from the top.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Wolfish
Member
Member


Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 10 | TRs

Wolfish
  Top

Member
PostWed Oct 24, 2018 6:14 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Agree thoroughly with rossb.  The 1995 ONP Goat Management Plan Draft EIS is a case study for lethal removal.  Not only was it not the selected option for the final plan, there was no final plan.  The entire effort was shut down.  Nor was there any action on non-native goats for the next two decades.

The current plan resulted in 115 goats gone on the first take.  That's a significant bite out of the population, with more to follow, and shooting still in the mix.  I'll support whatever it takes to get rid of Olympic's goats, and this is what it took.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski
><((((°>



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 9554 | TRs
Location: tacoma
Ski
  Top

><((((°>
PostWed Oct 24, 2018 7:38 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Wolfish, commenting about a previous goat removal effort wrote:
"...The entire effort was shut down...."

The entire effort was shut down because they dropped a few goats off some cliffs that fell to their deaths (bad optics) and damn near lost a helicopter and crew up on the ridge above the Quinault.

--------------
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
flatsqwerl
Member
Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 741 | TRs
Location: tacoma
flatsqwerl
  Top

Member
PostTue Oct 30, 2018 3:49 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski, in regards to your Wapato lake comment: I used to walk the lake daily from 2009-2013. The goose poo made the grass areas a minefield. Then, one day I was walking and noticed a guy with trained dogs in life vests. He was sending them out on the lake to scare the geese. He was hired by the city ( I assume ).  It worked. After that, I do not recall seeing him and his dogs, but the geese population and the poo was greatly reduced. Nice solution.
I have not walked there in several years so I do not know if the goose poo deal is still fixed.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 8657 | TRs
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
  Top

Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostTue Oct 30, 2018 4:03 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
That would be the dream job for the hyper bird dogs of the world.

--------------
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski
><((((°>



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 9554 | TRs
Location: tacoma
Ski
  Top

><((((°>
PostTue Oct 30, 2018 5:39 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
flatsqwerl - I believe it was a combination of spraying eggs, citing those who were feeding the geese, and harassing the geese that got things under control.
I know that the City (and MetroParks Tacoma) had their phones ringing off the hook for a while when the locals finally had enough and really started raising hell about it.

Unfortunately, they'll never be able to restore the water quality in the lake, as it is effectively the detention pond for all of the municipal stormwater runoff from the north end of the lake (at about South 56th Street) all the way up to South 38th Street, and from Tacoma Mall Boulevard (on the west side of I-5) all the way over to about South Yakima - that's a lot of urban runoff - a lot of ethylene glycol antifreeze; motor oil; transmission fluid; power steering fluid; brake fluid; hydraulic fluid; plus any other crap people pour out in back alleys and down storm drains (like paint thinner; solvents; detergents; etc.) Add to that the runoff from residential lawn-care products, and it's a toxic soup.
IF Oscar Hokold hadn't filled in "Little Wapato Lake" (refer to early archival topographical maps) - which was on the south side of South 72nd Street - in about 1962 when he first began construction of the housing development then known as "Lakeshore Estates", there would still be an outlet for the lake and it would have retained some of its capacity for flushing itself. ("Little Wapato Lake" was immediately west and immediately north of the parcel I grew up on.)
Currently MetroParks Tacoma and the City have plumbed the south end of the lake through a pipeline over to Wards Lake (2716 So. 84th St.), which has to some degree mitigated that issue, although it lacks the capacity to process the runoff coming in from upstream effectively.

Sorry about the thread drift. I may have posted all this stuff before - I can't remember right now.
I find it sad that the largest lake in the City of Tacoma was effectively turned into a cesspool because of shortsightedness and poor planning. We used to walk down there and swim when we were kids, up until about 1965-1966, when all the neighbor kids started breaking out in weird skin rashes and sufferering from ear infections.
Effectively fixing the problem would cost billions of dollars, and nobody really gives a damn about South Tacoma.

--------------
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
flatsqwerl
Member
Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 741 | TRs
Location: tacoma
flatsqwerl
  Top

Member
PostTue Oct 30, 2018 5:57 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski, I can see you are in a peppy mood so here is another uplifting comment: They have put in an excellent new steel/concrete bridge over lower Swan Creek.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski
><((((°>



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 9554 | TRs
Location: tacoma
Ski
  Top

><((((°>
PostTue Oct 30, 2018 9:02 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Oh lovely. Just what we needed.

How much graffiti is on it already?  rant.gif

--------------
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
flatsqwerl
Member
Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 741 | TRs
Location: tacoma
flatsqwerl
  Top

Member
PostTue Oct 30, 2018 9:37 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Haha! Its still in its virgin state along with the carefully planted native plants nearby in orderly rows.
my real curiosity is how will the community will treat the new shiny eastside community center on Portland/s56th.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Jaberwock
Member
Member


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 660 | TRs
Location: Bellingham
Jaberwock
  Top

Member
PostThu Nov 22, 2018 8:24 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
So did they get all of them out of the Olympics yet? Or do they have to finish next summer?
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
RodF
Member
Member


Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 2443 | TRs
Location: Sequim WA
RodF
  Top

Member
PostFri Nov 23, 2018 12:34 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Jaberwock wrote:
So did they get all of them out of the Olympics yet? Or do they have to finish next summer?

In short: no, and they will continue but won't finish next summer.

In 2018, a total of 114 the estimated 725 mountain goats in Olympic were captured, according to the Park's press release.  30 males and 68 females were translocated to the North Cascades, and 11 died occurred during capture or transport.

The goal is to capture about half the goats in Olympic, or 325 to 375 goats.  This will continue through 2019 and likely into 2020.  The rate of capture is expected to slow as the remaining goats learn to become more elusive and difficult to capture. 

The remaining half of the goats are to be shot in the final 3 years of the plan (2020-22), assuming additional funding is secured to complete it. 

The plan's goal is to reduce the goat population by about 90%.   "The remaining 10 percent would be addressed through ongoing maintenance activities which would involve opportunistic ground- and helicopter-based lethal removal of mountain goats" in future years beyond 2022.

The entire Olympic goat population was established by releasing only 11 goats in 1926.  It is not clear it will be possible to find the last few dozen and completely eradicate them.

--------------
"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated.  It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
  Display:     All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Forum Index > Stewardship > Mountain Goats relocated from ONP show up at Rattlesnake Ledge
  Happy Birthday Gabigabs, alpine964!
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
   Use Disclaimer Powered by phpBB Privacy Policy