Forum Index > Stewardship > Who gets to use the Teanaway Valley?
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Gil
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 9:05 am 
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You've got just over a week to comment on the plan for the Teanaway Community Forest. Here's our story about the issue. And before this, I knew nothing about Exclamation Point Rock! I know Kim Brown has some great photos of it.

https://kuow.org/stories/seattle-skiers-want-to-take-over-this-bro-forest

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rbuzby
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 11:15 am 
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"Kevin Aman lives in Maple Valley now but lived in North Bend for 20 years before that. "

Not sure what that has to do with anything.  Or is it about where he is not from?


People who ride snowmachines and dirt bikes will always want more trails to access, and people who don't will always want fewer.

It would be nice if whatever the rules are, they are followed and enforced.  Some snowmobiles go where they dont belong every winter (Lake Ingalls!), and some dirt bike people like to ride beyond where they are allowed also (Eagle lake!).
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RandyHiker
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 11:48 am 
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Nitpick:  It's not a question of "who", but "what".

I'm equally able to use skiis or a snow machine, my feet or a motorbike.

A person isn't their method of transportation.
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 12:53 pm 
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So we find that in spite of all the places these folks who enjoy motorized recreation are locked out of, and all the places skiers, hikers and walkers can go, which the motorized folks are locked out of...

some of the latter want *more* closures to end access to resources currently enjoyed by others whom they don't like sharing with.

Quote:

The idea is for cross country skiers, hikers, mountain bikers, and bird watchers to have access to places where they can enjoy the forest without being interrupted by snowmobilers, motorcyclists, and hunters.

They already have access to hundreds of thousands of acres where the recreations they don't like, are already banned for other tax paying citizens. The existence of millions of acres explicitly for their preferred use, is not enough.

Washington’s 31 wilderness areas

List of WA national Parks

Quote:
“When the whole community forest idea came about,” he said, “the first thing I said was, ‘Well, it’ll be a matter of 10 years, and they’ll start shutting stuff down. They’ll start kicking people out. And, you know, pretty soon hunting will be done.’”

McClelland said that’s not the plan.

I don't care what you claim the plan is, Mr McClelland. I care what you actually *do*, and getting rid of existing trail access for users is something you are already advocating earlier in your comments.

I don't hunt, snowmobile, or motorbike.

There is no one holy way to enjoy the outdoors, and they are *everyone's* resource.

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DigitalJanitor
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Here's what sucks: there were some moto guys that have been quietly poaching off riding in the WF basin for years, and for the most part they seemed to be a pretty responsible lot. They'd go cut out blow down in the spring, noodle around, stop and say hi when we were out on foot or on bikes, etc.

Once the dust started getting kicked up re "they're gonna kick us all out!" was when the real depressing renegade stuff started appearing. The wet area by Frog Pond got torn up, reports of aggro moto guys intimidating other people, more erosion and damage in the dry sandy forest areas/trails, etc.

I really really REALLY wish there was a way to get a "I'm not an arse" moto permit for those who used it reasonably responsibly all those years, and kick the rest out for good.

*sigh*
This is why we can't have nice things.

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Ski
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 2:41 pm 
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MtnGoat certainly does raise a valid point in his post just above. NPS, USFS, BLM, and DNR public lands were not "set aside" for the exclusive use of hikers and backpackers and birdwatchers.
That is not to say that all uses are necessarily appropriate in all areas. There are good reasons for use restrictions at all kinds of locations.

The DNR has done a pretty good job of minimizing user conflicts on the Capitol State Forest by separating motorized users from hikers and equestrians - there's a clearly defined line and generally users follow the rules.
Why is there any reason this cannot be done on the Teanaway?

... and how have things worked out up at Wallace Falls?

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cascadeclimber
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 3:06 pm 
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Motorized use is significantly higher impact. Noise, garbage, stink, and tearing up the ground (less so but not zero with sleds). You don't hear a skier from 100 yards away. You can hear (and smell) a two stroke sled high pointing from half a mile or more.

It's no secret that (some) motorized users have openly ignored the Teanaway (and others...Baker, St. Helens) boundaries for a very long time with impunity, to the detriment of others. Maybe this is karma catching up.

The stuff in this thread about people being banned from places is patently untrue. It's the machines that are banned. People are welcome within some guidelines.

It's ironic to me that the sled folks are up in arms...my understanding is that it's less expensive to spend a day ripping around Baker or St. Helens on a snowmobile than it is to hike/climb to the top of either. I've always thought of that group and benefiting greatly from being more organized that non-motorized user groups.

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Kim Brown
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 3:59 pm 
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From the Recreation Plan report:

No additional motorcycle routes are being considered. Connections to additional
Forest Service trails and motorized trail connections across Cle Elum Ridge and
Liars Prairie were evaluated during the planning process. Lack of legal easements,
private landowner concerns, broad floodplains on the West Fork Teanaway River,
habitat protection goals, and limited capacity for development and maintenance
of new trails on adjacent ownerships were deciding factors in this decision to not
develop additional trails.


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" I'm really happy about this! … I have very strong good and horrible memories up there."  – oldgranola, NWH’s outdoors advocate.
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treeswarper
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 4:01 pm 
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I haven't heard complaints about the area south of Randle where trails are shared.  There was no more litter on the motorized trails than on the hiker trails.  Maybe less on the motorized.  I hiked a few of those trails and everybody was polite.  In fact, it was good to hike the motorized trails during the week as few motorcyclists were about and hikers avoid those trails because of the fear of the motor.  Weekends were busy, as they should be.

It's not like it is an unknown area.  It gets quite a lot of motorcycle use.


In the Okanogan, we share the Loup Loup snopark and part of the ski trails with snowmobiles.  I guess there were complaints at first but now folks get along.

Why can't you?

I can see this will be yet another many paged motors are bad and we hate them thread and no we do not...

I think my fair state of Warshington is getting overcrowded.  That's the problem.

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Kim Brown
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 4:06 pm 
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It's unfortunate that the list of Committee members do not include their affiliation, so we know what users they represent.

Unless it's in there somewhere but I'm not seeing it...?

But I did notice an arbitrary font change on some bullet points on page 33. Having done a terrible job on an InDesign document once, I sympathize with those who created this one.  flowers.gif

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" I'm really happy about this! … I have very strong good and horrible memories up there."  – oldgranola, NWH’s outdoors advocate.
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 4:12 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
I haven't heard complaints about the area south of Randle where trails are shared.  There was no more litter on the motorized trails than on the hiker trails.  Maybe less on the motorized.  I hiked a few of those trails and everybody was polite.  In fact, it was good to hike the motorized trails during the week as few motorcyclists were about and hikers avoid those trails because of the fear of the motor.  Weekends were busy, as they should be.

It's not like it is an unknown area.  It gets quite a lot of motorcycle use.


In the Okanogan, we share the Loup Loup snopark and part of the ski trails with snowmobiles.  I guess there were complaints at first but now folks get along.

Why can't you?

I can see this will be yet another many paged motors are bad and we hate them thread and no we do not...

I think my fair state of Warshington is getting overcrowded.  That's the problem.

it's not crowding which is the problem, it's the intolerance for other recreation forms.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Kim Brown
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 4:20 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:


Why can't you?

.

Kim Brown wrote:
From the Recreation Plan report:

No additional motorcycle routes are being considered. Connections to additional
Forest Service trails and motorized trail connections across Cle Elum Ridge and
Liars Prairie were evaluated during the planning process. Lack of legal easements,
private landowner concerns, broad floodplains on the West Fork Teanaway River,
habitat protection goals, and limited capacity for development and maintenance
of new trails on adjacent ownerships were deciding factors in this decision to not
develop additional trails.


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" I'm really happy about this! … I have very strong good and horrible memories up there."  – oldgranola, NWH’s outdoors advocate.
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Ski
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 5:21 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
I haven't heard complaints about the area south of Randle where trails are shared. 

Harvey Manning whined about them in all of his early trail guide books, and included lists of trails that had been "Killed by Motorcycles" in the front pages of the books.
I always thought it was kind of funny that all those trails I hiked in the South Cascades that he had deemed "killed" were the ones where I never saw any other hikers, and only on rare occasions a few motorcycle riders.
Most of the trails were in decent shape except for the lower portion of the #272 Bishop Ridge Trail, which is pretty steep.

Well... Kim cites the language from the planning documents, and their explanation makes sense: if they don't have the space and egress is an issue, it makes sense to not plan for any new motorized trails.

cascadeclimber wrote:
Motorized use is significantly higher impact. Noise, garbage, stink, and tearing up the ground (less so but not zero with sleds). You don't hear a skier from 100 yards away. You can hear (and smell) a two stroke sled high pointing from half a mile or more.

True, but none of that changes the fact that almost to a man, every one of those motorized recreationists is an American citizen and has just as much right to use public lands as any hiker or backpacker.
The forests aren't there for your exclusive use.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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boot up
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 5:39 pm 
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Funny these arguments defend moto's so righteously, but foot powered bicycles were kicked out of trails without hesitation and with a whole lot less justification . 

I am glad to have moved out of anti-bicycle WA, and now live in a state where hikers and cyclists can sing Kumbaya together as they share the trails.   (with a very few grumpy hiker exceptions)

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Ski
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 5:50 pm 
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I think the Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance has made some pretty good headway in getting a piece of the pie for their user constituency.
They probably don't have the same political clout (or money) as the motorcycle users because they're smaller, the user constituency isn't as well organized, and they haven't been around as long.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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