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DIYSteve
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PostMon Nov 19, 2018 5:31 pm 
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Jake Neiffer wrote:
Steve- do you assume that anyone who posts about a problem with wind power is ignorant?

No, of course not. But many of of them appear to have a bias against wind power, and often other green technology. Calling them ignorant would be generous of me.

So, as an engineer, are you bothered by the vagueness of the article you linked?
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Jake Neiffer
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PostTue Nov 20, 2018 8:01 am 
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The true cost of subsidies, levelized costs, etc seem to be notoriously difficult to capture, and yes that UT paper is somewhat vague.  If its not totally correct I wouldn't be suprised.

Ultimately I obviously hope windpower and other green technology is successful.  The subsidies in Europe have apparently come down substantially and are continuing to do so. But thus far, the lion's of the US grants for wind power have gone overseas to foreign companies.
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DIYSteve
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PostTue Nov 20, 2018 8:56 am 
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Jake Neiffer wrote:
The true cost of subsidies, levelized costs, etc seem to be notoriously difficult to capture

Very true. The field has been titled in favor of Big Oil for decades, e.g., the oil depletion allowance, one of the biggest tax breaks in U.S. history. To get a complete picture, the costs of the Iraq War should be factored in because the U.S. would not have invaded Iraq then spent $2.4 trillion but for mideast oil.
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RandyHiker
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PostTue Nov 20, 2018 9:52 am 
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DIYSteve wrote:
So, as an engineer, are you bothered by the vagueness of the article you linked?

It would be interesting to know more details.  For example wind farms tend to be located in places with strong winds.  What was the methodology for determining that there was less predator activity than comparable windy areas without wind farms or was this a comparison between windy areas with wind farms and non windy areas without?
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Jake Neiffer
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PostTue Nov 20, 2018 10:19 am 
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To clarify, I was not a wind turbine engineer or anything of the sort.  Steve and others here may very well have more expertise on wind power than I do.  I did spend time as a field engineer in China on construction of a new nuclear power plant.

Site suitibity for wind farms is an interesting field, but what is apparent is that no place is perfect.  Even here with Shepards Flat and all the other farms, there are times throughout the year when nothing is happening.  We are certainly prone to inversions, "stagnant air advisories" and the like for weeks at a time during the winter, as you are probably aware of.
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PostTue Nov 20, 2018 10:28 am 
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Quote:
The true cost of subsidies, levelized costs, etc seem to be notoriously difficult to capture

The math can be pretty precise for any one location but there is a very large variation between locations.  Thus it is very hard to use a single national value.
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Nov 20, 2018 11:27 am 
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DIYSteve wrote:
Jake Neiffer wrote:
Steve- do you assume that anyone who posts about a problem with wind power is ignorant?

No, of course not. But many of of them appear to have a bias against wind power, and often other green technology. Calling them ignorant would be generous of me.

So, as an engineer, are you bothered by the vagueness of the article you linked?

I have a bias against net losses and waste claimed be beneficial, especially with the massive footprints. The degradation of the views alone, is atrocious beyond measure. Formerly open lands now gigantic industrial parks off to the horizon in N central OR, formerly dark lands a sea of blinking red lights at night.

Is that ignorant? Lay it on me.

It's easy to sort out actual costs. Cut all actual subsidies and write offs, and let the market decide. But this is a non starter for many because they *want* to use subsidies and distortions to push their favorite energy source. Me, not so much. Let the market fight it out.

Note that I don't attach any significance whatsoever to calculated 'externalities' costs. They are not market prices, so they are fundamentally flawed from the outset. Actual markets are the sole source of valid prices, because no number of experts can tell what people will *actually* choose to pay or value for any given thing. What even the buyer themselves will *claim* they value is proven, or not, by actual payment at the time of trade... and nothing else.

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MtnGoat
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PostTue Nov 20, 2018 11:35 am 
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DIYSteve wrote:
This issue requires some perspective.

That other things kill birds, doesn't mean killing even more is a good thing. Especially on systems whose existence is a supposed solution to a non problem in the first place. All those birds are being killed for an expensive, wasteful fantasy.

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MtnGoat
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PostTue Nov 20, 2018 11:46 am 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
Steve is correct. Those who are against sustainable energy and conservation will grasp any argument to make a political case. It is about making an argument not preserving birds.

It's about not killing more birds for a farcical reason.

Make valid arguments, not strawman ones.

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PostTue Nov 20, 2018 11:48 am 
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Ski wrote:
DIYSteve wrote:
"...the issue of wind farm bird kills is meaningless unless it is viewed in the context of damage caused by other forms of electricity generation and other human endeavors (including pet and feral cats, the biggest human-triggered cause of songbird deaths)..."

^ Well and succinctly put, sir.

The argument against wind-generated power (because of bird kills) is just another sham.

If people were really concerned about birds, they'd start slaughtering cats en masse.

Ah, the solution to killing.... is more killing.

As always, a headshaker.

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PostTue Nov 20, 2018 11:49 am 
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Jake Neiffer wrote:
Ski- I've never seen a house cat kill a golden eagle.

So many assumptions on motivations.  I'm not suggesting to can wind power because it kills birds, but raptor deaths are legitimate to consider nonetheless.

Steve-  do you assume that anyone who posts about a problem with wind power is ignorant?  I have an engineering degree and worked in the nuke field for years. I have a decent grasp on the pros and cons of various types of electricity generation.

Another legitimate concern is subsides.  They are still orders of magnitude higher for renewables. The money that was used for wind power subsidies resulted in CO2 emissions.  For some reason, this is often ignored.

For recent info on subsidies on a $/MWh basis, see page 24 of this paper: https://energy.utexas.edu/sites/default/files/UTAustin_FCe_Subsidies_2018_April.pdf

I challenge every green advocate to show me a green powered supply chain to produce green infrastructure. From mining to refinement to production.

They're not self sustainable, not even close. A net loss is harm to the ecosystem, not a benefit.

The green agenda is one of control, featuring humans as problem. *Other* humans, as you see from the proponents own *actual* actions and choices, which are then handwaved because  they care.

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Ski
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PostTue Nov 20, 2018 12:08 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Ah, the solution to killing.... is more killing.

Hey, it worked for Curtis LeMay! lol.gif

Okay, but seriously, MtnGoat:
In the bigger picture, bird mortality caused by wind turbines is insignificant when stacked up against all the other things that kill birds.
Steve cited the numbers above. If you think those numbers are inaccurate, please let us know.

Cats kill a hell of a lot of birds. There's no arguing that fact. There's certainly no shortage of cats, and in particular no shortage of feral cats. They've become pests, the same as rats. Or rabbits in Australia. Or the mongoose in Hawaii.
Can you offer a better solution other than killing them?
I'm all ears.

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PostTue Nov 20, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Ski wrote:
MtnGoat wrote:
Ah, the solution to killing.... is more killing.

Hey, it worked for Curtis LeMay! lol.gif

Okay, but seriously, MtnGoat:
In the bigger picture, bird mortality caused by wind turbines is insignificant when stacked up against all the other things that kill birds.
Steve cited the numbers above. If you think those numbers are inaccurate, please let us know.

Cats kill a hell of a lot of birds. There's no arguing that fact. There's certainly no shortage of cats, and in particular no shortage of feral cats. They've become pests, the same as rats. Or rabbits in Australia. Or the mongoose in Hawaii.
Can you offer a better solution other than killing them?
I'm all ears.

Nope, because I don't see what already occurs as a problem requiring a solution.

The whaddaboutism of 'context' does not change the fact that turbines are *additional* killing. In fact, it's intentionally presented to sidestep the *addition* of more killing.

I see validating *additional* killing of more birds to solve a non issue, non existent human caused warming, as the problem. It is killing for no valid reason.

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Tom
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PostTue Nov 20, 2018 3:36 pm 
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Nonexistent AGW?
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Nov 20, 2018 3:51 pm 
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It is clear he just considers incidental bird kill from wind turbines just another bullet point in his crusade against doing any thing to remedy global warming.

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