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Joseph
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PostSun Nov 25, 2018 9:37 am 
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RumiDude wrote:
Can we stop with all this "millennial" talk. All of these supposed identifiable generations are contrived. Humans have not changed much for millennia. What has changed is technology.

Of course consultants and such make lots of money with books and speaking engagements telling us how the new generation is soooooo different than what has come before.

Rumi

I disagree.  While humans are basically the same where it counts, there are specific differences between millennials (and younger) related to use of technology in ways relevant to the topic which is over use of wilderness.

Go look at the Wa. Hikers and Climbers FB page - festooned with all sorts of photos/selfies - shouting from the mountain tops "look at this cool hike I went on" - a summons to all the others on social media to check it out. And word spreads and this contributes to the increase in use.  I think older gens are less likely to use social media (also Instragram) in this way.

Whereas info used to spread via a much more slowly "word of mouth" - I might tell some of my hiker friends about a cool place - now it spreads like wildfire where people post photos and an exponential # of strangers see the cool place.  Mind you, the cat is out of the bag, and they all bring their dogs who swim in the lakes and traipse around the meadows, often off leash (and they all have dogs, it seems). There is nothing we can do about it.  I guess I'm lamenting it all.

Harvey Manning must be turning over in his grave.
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hbb
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PostSun Nov 25, 2018 6:03 pm 
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Joseph wrote:
Harvey Manning must be turning over in his grave.

Why? He, probably more than any other person, popularized hiking in Washington, particularly in the I-90 corridor and the Icicle Creek drainage. I mean, the guy made his living selling hiking guides: he not only told everyone where to go, he profited from doing so.
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Joseph
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PostSun Nov 25, 2018 6:45 pm 
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hbb wrote:
Joseph wrote:
Harvey Manning must be turning over in his grave.

Why? He, probably more than any other person, popularized hiking in Washington, particularly in the I-90 corridor and the Icicle Creek drainage. I mean, the guy made his living selling hiking guides: he not only told everyone where to go, he profited from doing so.

Because he, probably more than any notable NW outdoor / hiking author, lamented the disturbing of the wilderness by ever increasing numbers of visitors.  But you correctly point out his role in increasing the # of hikers who were turned on to hiking from his books (kind of ironic on that point).  But read the introductions to his books.  Here is an excerpt from the 1993 2nd edition of 100 Hikes in the Alpine Lakes:

"The state's population has approximately doubled since the 1960's; just as we prophesied, hikers here overwhelmed the dedicated wilderness areas. Many sites are being overpopulated to the point of destruction. This cannot be allowed to continue."

Manning admits that his books would spur more people to explore the trails and increase use and wear and tear.  But he admitted: "threatened areas could only be saved if they were more widely known and treasured."   So perhaps if more people are using the trails, there will be more people interested in preserving the wilderness.  Unfortunately, too many hikers/backpackers do not seem to have a respect for the wilderness in that they leave their trash, let their dogs (or themselves) crap anywhere. 

My own view is that there needs to be limits on how many people use certain areas - similar to Enchantments regulations.  And, we need to disperse the hikers by allowing access to more trails. Again, Manning: "To disperse the boots and sleeping bags and thereby relieve pressure on fragile ecosystems, we expanded 100 Hikes to five volumes."   

I do not think that Manning would like how technology (social media, eg) has contributed to ever increasing hordes of new hikers using the trails, and not respecting them.
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RumiDude
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PostSun Nov 25, 2018 8:56 pm 
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Joseph wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
Can we stop with all this "millennial" talk. All of these supposed identifiable generations are contrived. Humans have not changed much for millennia. What has changed is technology.

Of course consultants and such make lots of money with books and speaking engagements telling us how the new generation is soooooo different than what has come before.

Rumi

I disagree.  While humans are basically the same where it counts, there are specific differences between millennials (and younger) related to use of technology in ways relevant to the topic which is over use of wilderness.

Go look at the Wa. Hikers and Climbers FB page - festooned with all sorts of photos/selfies - shouting from the mountain tops "look at this cool hike I went on" - a summons to all the others on social media to check it out. And word spreads and this contributes to the increase in use.  I think older gens are less likely to use social media (also Instragram) in this way.

Whereas info used to spread via a much more slowly "word of mouth" - I might tell some of my hiker friends about a cool place - now it spreads like wildfire where people post photos and an exponential # of strangers see the cool place.  Mind you, the cat is out of the bag, and they all bring their dogs who swim in the lakes and traipse around the meadows, often off leash (and they all have dogs, it seems). There is nothing we can do about it.  I guess I'm lamenting it all.

Harvey Manning must be turning over in his grave.

Well the marking off of generations is contrived and arbitrary. There is nothing other than the time of birth which essentially unites these supposed generations. Millennials are generally defined as those born between 1980 and 2000. Why? There is no definitive answer. I think it simply goes back to the "baby boom" generation, which simply identified a huge jump in babies born following WW2 but nothing really intrinsic about those people. The "generations" both before and after have since been marked off. Why? Again, no definitive answer. The dividing into these supposed generations is arbitrary and not explanatory. Most explanatory is not the year one is born, but one's age in life. As individual's grow older they change. The kid that is worried sick about the big zit on his/her face at 16 could not care less about stuff like that at 66.

The differences you cite are about technology, not the character of a generation. It's when millenials are supposedly linked with narcissism and other negative traits is where the use of the term "millennial" loses any explanatory function. I will simply use one quote to illustrate: "Massive influx of young Millennials with extra $$ to spend at REI and free time to go hiking and take selfies which they post on social media so other narcissistic fools can go there and do the same."  Younger people are more narcissistic than older people. As those younger people grow older they too become less narcissistic, particularly if they have children. And then when they have grandchildren, they become even less narcissistic.

So yes, the ways in which information is communicated has changed and social media is a huge part of that change. We can't put the genie back into the bottle. We just have to move forward and change how things are done to assure we do not destroy the wilderness we cherish.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Cyclopath
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PostSun Nov 25, 2018 10:11 pm 
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Don't you think you're laying it on a little thick?




Joseph wrote:
I disagree.  While humans are basically the same where it counts, there are specific differences between millennials (and younger) related to use of technology in ways relevant to the topic which is over use of wilderness.

Go look at the Wa. Hikers and Climbers FB page - festooned with all sorts of photos/selfies - shouting from the mountain tops "look at this cool hike I went on" - a summons to all the others on social media to check it out. And word spreads and this contributes to the increase in use.  I think older gens are less likely to use social media (also Instragram) in this way.

Whereas info used to spread via a much more slowly "word of mouth" - I might tell some of my hiker friends about a cool place - now it spreads like wildfire where people post photos and an exponential # of strangers see the cool place.  Mind you, the cat is out of the bag, and they all bring their dogs who swim in the lakes and traipse around the meadows, often off leash (and they all have dogs, it seems). There is nothing we can do about it.  I guess I'm lamenting it all.

Harvey Manning must be turning over in his grave.
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water
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 2:06 am 
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Joseph wrote:
there are specific differences between millennials (and younger) related to use of technology in ways relevant to the topic which is over use of wilderness. 

Joseph wrote:
Whereas info used to spread via a much more slowly "word of mouth"

give me those golden days when you had to put a letter in the post if you wanted to really speak to someone. Those narcissists who can't be bothered with the politeness of penmanship and prose, instead crassly use the telegraph to crudely relay information, losing all context, form, and character of their message! What once was an art from time immemorial now lay in ruin all for the sake of unabashed expediency and gratification!

don't even get me started on the terrible noise, fire hazard, and unsafe speed of vehicles. A buggy whip in hand finds no finer day under the sun! Now all the hordes zoom to the wilderness en masse from what was once reserved for only master horsemen!


btw you are clearly triggered by dogs (they all have them!)

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Snuffy
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 6:40 am 
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Joseph wrote:
Go look at the Wa. Hikers and Climbers FB page - festooned with all sorts of photos/selfies - shouting from the mountain tops "look at this cool hike I went on" - a summons to all the others on social media to check it out. And word spreads and this contributes to the increase in use.  I think older gens are less likely to use social media (also Instragram) in this way. 

Whereas info used to spread via a much more slowly "word of mouth" - I might tell some of my hiker friends about a cool place - now it spreads like wildfire where people post photos and an exponential # of strangers see the cool place.  Mind you, the cat is out of the bag, and they all bring their dogs who swim in the lakes and traipse around the meadows, often off leash (and they all have dogs, it seems). There is nothing we can do about it.  I guess I'm lamenting it all. 

People have been taking pictures of themselves on top of mountains and in cool wilderness places as long as there have been ways to do so, even paintings will attest to this.  I recently saw an old photo of two gals posing on a rock in Yosemite with their legs kicked up in a pose, skirts pulled up and bloomers showing like a can can dance move.  Today it's yoga poses.  Social media just means we have to see selfies of strangers beyond our own social circle.  A lot of them because there simply are more people on this planet and thus more people using public lands.

Love or hate WHC, filled with all its selfies, you are just as likely to see hikers sharing LNT information, as well.  And FWIW, WHC does moderate/delete the over use of selfies, LNT violations, etc.  It takes over 20 moderators to do so.   dizzy.gif

What did the old fogies lament when they had to begin permitting the Enchantments, etc.  No social media to blame then.  Was it the guidebooks?  Were people calling for a ban on books then?

The solution isn't to wage a war on social media or the younger generation, it is to figure out how to use it/them to engage and involve those who enjoy the outdoors in its preservation and conservation.  Same problem that generations before have had to deal with...

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DIYSteve
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 8:41 am 
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hbb wrote:
Joseph wrote:
Harvey Manning must be turning over in his grave.

Why? He, probably more than any other person, popularized hiking in Washington, particularly in the I-90 corridor and the Icicle Creek drainage.

Spot on. Harvey Manning is more responsible than anyone for crowding on the 100+ most popular WA hikes.
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coldrain108
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 8:55 am 
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Snuffy wrote:
Same problem that generations before have had to deal with...

except it was in the opposite direction back then.  The "new-comers" in 1970 were trying to convince the "old timers" not to be such gluttonous slobs, where today the "old timers" are trying to convince the "new-comers" not to be such gluttonous slobs.  The "Earth Day" generation.

When I first hiked the High Divide in 1990 I was asked how I found out about that hike.  My response was that I am a map fanatic and located it be scouring maps, the person asking was sure I found it in one of the 100 hike books.  Nope, I had not seen those books at that point in time. But we actually enjoyed looking for info regarding areas we wanted to hike in...long before the internet made it exponentially easier.  I had maps of the west posted in my room at college, so I could spend my winters planning my summer adventures.

Speaking of the High Divide, it was still a mess in 1990, lots of bare dirt, plenty of extra social trails, garbage buried behind rocks.  Now it is so much better.  So in my opinion, strictly controlled quota's are the way to go.  Nothing like attaching a person's name, address and CC number to their activity to keep them in line.

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"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch and do nothing"  - Albert Einstein
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hbb
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 9:25 am 
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Joseph wrote:
I do not think that Manning would like how technology (social media, eg) has contributed to ever increasing hordes of new hikers using the trails, and not respecting them.


Why not? His guidebooks are marketed and sold online; with just a single mouse-click, any idiot can get a comprehensive guide to a variety of hikes, complete with driving directions, with the most photogenic trails specifically noted.
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joker
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 10:39 am 
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Snuffy wrote:
Love or hate WHC, filled with all its selfies, you are just as likely to see hikers sharing LNT information, as well.

True fact! And also true that on  most of those posts, there will be a significant contingent poo-poohing the basic concepts of LNT. I frankly think a lot of sharing of LNT thought  is stifled there due to this prevalent and somewhat aggressive dynamic that I've seen  over and over and over there. And the moderators have a tendency to shunt a lot of relevant such  discussion off to the very quiet halls of the "WH&C Discussion" group, forever to be ignored and forgotten. I get that they don't want to spend all their waking  hours playing janitors for child-adults (of ALL ages and generations :-) ).  But it comes off as if they are taking a pass on helping to guide the norms of discussion on the group beyond the  most basic playground skills.

I think there's plenty of good with the bad and the genie is out of the  bottle and no I'm not keen on returning to the days of buggie whips. I am eager to see norms for use of social media to share outdoor adventure and related content evolve over the remainder of my life.
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RumiDude
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 12:31 pm 
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joker wrote:
Snuffy wrote:
Love or hate WHC, filled with all its selfies, you are just as likely to see hikers sharing LNT information, as well.

True fact! And also true that on  most of those posts, there will be a significant contingent poo-poohing the basic concepts of LNT. I frankly think a lot of sharing of LNT thought  is stifled there due to this prevalent and somewhat aggressive dynamic that I've seen  over and over and over there.

I am not on WHC so I can't compare them to this site, but from that verbal description I could just as well apply it to NWHikers.net. And much of the poo-poohing comes from "old-timers" on this site. One of the most basic precepts of LNT is "pack it in/pack it out". And yet whenever one applies that to say coffee grounds, apple cores, etc., well be prepared for push-back. As the backcountry use increases, many people still insist on doing the same as they did 30 years ago.

And that is what we all need to realize, we are going to have to change, both in official policies and personal practices, and adapt to the ever changing society in regards to the backcountry. These kinds of changes happening down in Oregon are eventually going to have to be made elsewhere, maybe even some of our favorite areas.

I think the important discussion is how we decide what policy changes need to happen. I will say that the bureaucratic procedures for the changes can be very frustrating for most people. That may contribute to non-compliance from some, though many are just of the mind that rules/regulations are for other people and not themselves. That also carries over into following LNT principles when some feel like they can ignore LNT because of their supposed superior skill set.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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markweth
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 1:22 pm 
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RumiDude wrote:
These kinds of changes happening down in Oregon are eventually going to have to be made elsewhere, maybe even some of our favorite areas.

I would like to posit that such changes -- reservations and quotas -- aren't inevitable for most places. They are happening in places that have huge increases in visitation in the last few years, with social media playing a role in driving use to those specific spots. People want to go to the spots they see gorgeous pictures of on social media (who can blame them?) and then they go to those specific spots. When they do this by the hundreds and thousands, it adds up to real impacts. There is plenty of public land to absorb the increasing visitation (which is a great thing, more people getting outside), but the visitation isn't distributed across it. That's the problem. People see a picture of a mountain lake on Instagram and feel compelled to go to that specific lake -- and not one of the dozens of other lakes that are nearby.


As more people start following the recent LNT guidelines about social media which encourage people to use a bit of discretion when naming specific locations, I think we will see more people spreading out and hopefully the impacts on specific places will decrease a bit. Yes, people might have to do a modicum of research to figure out different places to go hike but this ultimately makes them better informed and hopefully better prepared, as well as giving them more or a sense of investment in their experience. This will hopefully better distribute use across our public lands and result in more people getting on more trails, rather than concentrating use on a few trails and areas (which then makes it easier for land management agencies to justify neglecting trails X, Y and Z, since everyone goes to Places A and B).
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joker
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 2:15 pm 
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RumiDude wrote:
I am not on WHC so I can't compare them to this site, but from that verbal description I could just as well apply it to NWHikers.net.

Oh yeah, for sure. This site is also a form of social media and I believe norms here will continue to evolve, just as they have since I joined maybe about fifteen years ago (eg see level of pushback on not posting about certain lake ventures, which seems to have declined over that time, in line with what the LNT.ORG have finally codified in their latest guideline).

And just as outdoor clubs evolved their norms to include things like education efforts and demonstration of best practices by leaders a long time ago. I think social media is in many respects displacing clubs as ways of helping newcomers get out. It just has a ways to go before it will match the "expose and promote" with "educate and advocate" of clubs. But the evolution is happening even now.
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RumiDude
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 2:17 pm 
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markweth wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
These kinds of changes happening down in Oregon are eventually going to have to be made elsewhere, maybe even some of our favorite areas.

I would like to posit that such changes -- reservations and quotas -- aren't inevitable for most places. They are happening in places that have huge increases in visitation in the last few years, with social media playing a role in driving use to those specific spots. People want to go to the spots they see gorgeous pictures of on social media (who can blame them?) and then they go to those specific spots. When they do this by the hundreds and thousands, it adds up to real impacts. There is plenty of public land to absorb the increasing visitation (which is a great thing, more people getting outside), but the visitation isn't distributed across it. That's the problem. People see a picture of a mountain lake on Instagram and feel compelled to go to that specific lake -- and not one of the dozens of other lakes that are nearby.

Most of the overcrowding and resulting degrading of certain areas happened long before FB and Instagram. Much of it happened before the ubiquity of GPS and such.

I would posit the social media effect accounts for only a small portion of the problem. The reason visitation is not distributed relatively evenly across our public lands has very little to do with our latest "modern" social media.

markweth wrote:
As more people start following the recent LNT guidelines about social media which encourage people to use a bit of discretion when naming specific locations, I think we will see more people spreading out and hopefully the impacts on specific places will decrease a bit.

Quantify that statement. What percentage of compliance to the LNT guidelines for social media will result in easing the strain on our favorite backcountry areas? I would posit it would take a high percentage of compliance to have a noticeable effect. I think it will take higher compliance than "pack it in/pack it out" or bury your poop at least 6"-8" deep.

I am not against the new LNT social media guidelines. But I have grave doubts as to their effectiveness in solving the greater issues of overcrowding/overuse of the backcountry wilderness areas. On the other hand, enacting reservations and quotas for overused areas has shown its effectiveness.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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