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markweth
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 4:03 pm 
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RumiDude wrote:
The reason visitation is not distributed relatively evenly across our public lands has very little to do with our latest "modern" social media.

I agree, and I understand the point you're making, but I also think it should be recognized that for several places in recent years (Guffey Gorge in Colorado, Oneonta Gorge in Oregon, Horseshoe Bend, The Enchantments, Conundrum Hot Springs in Colorado, and many more) there is a direct correlation between increased exposure on social media and increased use. Sure, the Enchantments were already popular, but now they are extremely popular. The use there from 2007-2012 (pre-Instagram and widespread social media use) and from 2012-2017 is striking.


RumiDude wrote:
What percentage of compliance to the LNT guidelines for social media will result in easing the strain on our favorite backcountry areas?

To me, it isn't so much as about trying to ease strain on already popular areas -- the ship has sailed on that one. It's more about trying to keep certain places that aren't already overused from becoming that way. To put it another way, the cat is already out of the bag for a lot of places -- what I hope happens is that by using a more thoughtful bag, we can keep the remaining cats from getting out.
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joker
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 4:14 pm 
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RumiDude wrote:
I would posit the social media effect accounts for only a small portion of the problem. The reason visitation is not distributed relatively evenly across our public lands has very little to do with our latest "modern" social media.

Can you quantify that? ;-)

I've certainly seen anecdotal level  info, including talking with folks out  in the field about  why they chose a destination that's seeing an in-my-experience very sudden spike in use that - to a degree that suggests to me that some places  are indeed seeing a fairly impressive spike in use quite  specifically due to trip reports or Instagram love. Is it the only factor? Of course not. Are some places seeing increases mostly due to other  factors such  as an increasing overall user base? Of course. But I think the "distributional effects" of social media on destination use is real and significant. No I can't quantify that :-)
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joker
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 4:16 pm 
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And fwiw, I think Mr. Manning's notion of the value of going toward "500 hikes" is a sound one. The challenge is finding the social media equivalent.
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RumiDude
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 7:42 pm 
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markweth wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
What percentage of compliance to the LNT guidelines for social media will result in easing the strain on our favorite backcountry areas?

To me, it isn't so much as about trying to ease strain on already popular areas -- the ship has sailed on that one. It's more about trying to keep certain places that aren't already overused from becoming that way. To put it another way, the cat is already out of the bag for a lot of places -- what I hope happens is that by using a more thoughtful bag, we can keep the remaining cats from getting out.

Well now, you have a different agenda now than just spreading impact. Instead you seem to want to keep places unknown. This is what you wrote earlier: "As more people start following the recent LNT guidelines about social media which encourage people to use a bit of discretion when naming specific locations, I think we will see more people spreading out and hopefully the impacts on specific places will decrease a bit. Yes, people might have to do a modicum of research to figure out different places to go hike but this ultimately makes them better informed and hopefully better prepared, as well as giving them more or a sense of investment in their experience. This will hopefully better distribute use across our public lands and result in more people getting on more trails, rather than concentrating use on a few trails and areas " And: "There is plenty of public land to absorb the increasing visitation (which is a great thing, more people getting outside), but the visitation isn't distributed across it."

What can't be changed is how people communicate and gather information. At this point in time the internet is the primary way people do that. And every day that is increasingly so. They say that in a few years we will move towards using satellite phones instead of cell phones. And as phones themselves become more sophisticated and powerful, that will mean that combined almost any square foot on the face of the earth a person with a phone will have access to almost all information. Controlling information will become impossible. That is why I believe the effort to curtail this kind of information through "social media guidelines" is short sighted as well as futile. Whatever the future brings us in communication one thing is for sure, there will be more and complete information exchanged not less.

Again, I think the better approach is through limiting access with permits and quotas for places that get overused.

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Joseph
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 8:02 pm 
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RumiDude wrote:
Well the marking off of generations is contrived and arbitrary. There is nothing other than the time of birth which essentially unites these supposed generations. Millennials are generally defined as those born between 1980 and 2000. Why? There is no definitive answer. I think it simply goes back to the "baby boom" generation, which simply identified a huge jump in babies born following WW2 but nothing really intrinsic about those people. The "generations" both before and after have since been marked off. Why? Again, no definitive answer. The dividing into these supposed generations is arbitrary and not explanatory. Most explanatory is not the year one is born, but one's age in life. As individual's grow older they change. The kid that is worried sick about the big zit on his/her face at 16 could not care less about stuff like that at 66.

The differences you cite are about technology, not the character of a generation. It's when millenials are supposedly linked with narcissism and other negative traits is where the use of the term "millennial" loses any explanatory function. I will simply use one quote to illustrate: "Massive influx of young Millennials with extra $$ to spend at REI and free time to go hiking and take selfies which they post on social media so other narcissistic fools can go there and do the same."  Younger people are more narcissistic than older people. As those younger people grow older they too become less narcissistic, particularly if they have children. And then when they have grandchildren, they become even less narcissistic.

So yes, the ways in which information is communicated has changed and social media is a huge part of that change. We can't put the genie back into the bottle. We just have to move forward and change how things are done to assure we do not destroy the wilderness we cherish.

Rumi

Okay fine - then technology gives the younger generations much more opportunities to indulge their youthful narcissism.  And it feeds the narcissism. I do think that it goes beyond mere technology and age, upbringing is also a factor.  Helicopter parents doting on their kids, participation trophies, etc.  This goes on well into their 20's.  But yeah - technology for sure: FB, Twitter, etc. - how many followers do you have?? How many likes?  etc.  And culture: reality shows - millennials are the first generation to grow up with those shows. Look at how they respond to criticism: "you're hating on me!"  LOL.  They are different from previous generations.
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Joseph
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 8:06 pm 
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water wrote:
give me those golden days when you had to put a letter in the post if you wanted to really speak to someone. Those narcissists who can't be bothered with the politeness of penmanship and prose, instead crassly use the telegraph to crudely relay information, losing all context, form, and character of their message! What once was an art from time immemorial now lay in ruin all for the sake of unabashed expediency and gratification!

don't even get me started on the terrible noise, fire hazard, and unsafe speed of vehicles. A buggy whip in hand finds no finer day under the sun! Now all the hordes zoom to the wilderness en masse from what was once reserved for only master horsemen!


btw you are clearly triggered by dogs (they all have them!)

Ha.  "throwing shade" are we?  Sigh. I get your point, and yes, the dogs crapping on trails or growling at me does "trigger" me.  The new generation of hikers seem to be more likely to have a dog than a kid.  Of course that makes it easier to indulge in all the hikes, trips, vacations, etc. (can't put kids in a kennel, lol).
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Ski
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 8:18 pm 
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joker wrote:
I'm not keen on returning to the days of buggie whips.

Might be a good idea - think of the job opportunities it would create!


1913 Hibbard Spencer Bartlett & Co. catalog Whip Stocks & Lashes ad pp 1370
1913 Hibbard Spencer Bartlett & Co. catalog Whip Stocks & Lashes ad pp 1370
1913 Hibbard Spencer Bartlett & Co. Catalog Whip Sockets ad pp 1377
1913 Hibbard Spencer Bartlett & Co. Catalog Whip Sockets ad pp 1377

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DIYSteve
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 8:21 pm 
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Yo Joseph, are those goddam punk kids still on your lawn?
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joker
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 9:01 pm 
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RumiDude wrote:
What can't be changed is how people communicate and gather information.

My god that's been changed radically during my adult years!! It will continue to change during  the  rest of them, perhaps just as radically. And we do have some agency in how that proceeds.
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RumiDude
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 9:15 pm 
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Joseph wrote:
They are different from previous generations.

Millenials are better educated than previous generations. They are more entrepreneurial than previous generations. They are more health conscious than prior generations.  They are less prejudiced than previous generations. They have less credit card debt than previous generations. They are less brand loyal than previous generations. They are more tech savvy than prior generations. Millennials are less likely to think getting drunk is cool.

Yea, I'd say that millennials are different from previous generations.

Rumi

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RumiDude
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 9:41 pm 
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joker wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
What can't be changed is how people communicate and gather information.

My god that's been changed radically during my adult years!! It will continue to change during  the  rest of them, perhaps just as radically. And we do have some agency in how that proceeds.

Hmm, maybe you and I are speaking of different aspects here. How people communicate has changed, but it can't be managed. Attempts at controlling and/or managing communication have almost universally completely failed.

You may have agency over your communication, but you don't over how others communicate. And you are not likely able to predict how the majority will communicate in the future.  You can't make anyone stop communicating as they wish to communicate. In that respect, neither you nor anyone else can change how people communicate. When change happens, no one will be controlling it.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Joseph
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 9:56 pm 
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RumiDude wrote:
Millenials are better educated than previous generations. They are more entrepreneurial than previous generations. They are more health conscious than prior generations.  They are less prejudiced than previous generations. They have less credit card debt than previous generations. They are less brand loyal than previous generations. They are more tech savvy than prior generations. Millennials are less likely to think getting drunk is cool.

Yea, I'd say that millennials are different from previous generations.

Rumi

They certainly like their organic Kale, I'll grant you that !  Better educated?  Hmm.. that is debatable, as are many of your other claims in your post.  More tech savvy is a given, isn't it?
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Joseph
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 9:57 pm 
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DIYSteve wrote:
Yo Joseph, are those goddam punk kids still on your lawn?

Ha.  No, just on all the trails with their darn dogs.
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joker
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 10:58 pm 
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RumiDude wrote:
How people communicate has changed, but it can't be managed.

Sure,  but it can be influenced. And has repeatedly through history. People said a lot of things readily in public when I was a kid that aren't said almost at all  today, and this change has been due essentially to social influence. And certain types of communication can be facilitated, as has happened repeatedly through the  history of information technologies. And perhaps even more so for "how people gather information" (which was part of what I was reacting to). I think it's worth thinking creatively and deeply about the  levers available rather than focusing entirely on the fact that "control" is not possible.
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joker
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 11:03 pm 
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RumiDude wrote:
Yea, I'd say that millennials are different from previous generations.

Right. There are some differences between generations (beyond just current age and how stage of life influences behaviors and  attitudes).
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