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RumiDude
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 1:45 am 
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joker wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
How people communicate has changed, but it can't be managed.

Sure,  but it can be influenced. And has repeatedly through history. People said a lot of things readily in public when I was a kid that aren't said almost at all  today, and this change has been due essentially to social influence. And certain types of communication can be facilitated, as has happened repeatedly through the  history of information technologies. And perhaps even more so for "how people gather information" (which was part of what I was reacting to). I think it's worth thinking creatively and deeply about the  levers available rather than focusing entirely on the fact that "control" is not possible.

joker wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
Yea, I'd say that millennials are different from previous generations.

Right. There are some differences between generations (beyond just current age and how stage of life influences behaviors and  attitudes).

I think on both of these we are looking at things from a different angle. I'll leave my pedantic argument at that.

As far as the practical discussion goes, I think that trying to solve overuse issues in the backcountry through the LNT social media suggestions is an exercise in futility. I don't think it can even protect the as yet undiscovered by the masses gems. I think the real emphasis needs to be placed on proper backcountry practices. And if some places begin to be degraded through overuse, then there should be limits placed on access by the land managers. And as far as the talk of the millennial generation and such, I don't think I have ever encountered a good explanatory use of the supposed generations. I am open to it, but so far I haven't hear/read one.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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joker
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 9:27 am 
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Well on the generations, you yourself seemed to be ascribing some qualities to this named one. You will see that I've not made any comments about generations in this thread other than noting that  of course  there  are some differences beyond just stage-of-life, as you yourself seem to have noted.

As for communication, I humbly disagree that it's just a waste of time to put any attention there. Yes, focus on things like permits for some areas. Yes, of course, focus on "proper backcountry practices" (which, like communication norms, of course can't be forced on anyone unless you believe that we're going to make a massive increase in backcountry ranger budgets). This is not an either/or situation. And the communication practices DO have an impact, and I believe over time can and will be nudged toward doing things like helping spread use a bit better than the current practices tend to (which as I've described I believe DO actually have a use concentrating effect beyond what was seen in the past from other causes) and can also be nudged toward helping better promote those "better backcountry practices" (I have a hard  time seeing what other communication channel is going to take on spreading such practices to be honest).
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markweth
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 9:50 am 
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RumiDude wrote:
As far as the practical discussion goes, I think that trying to solve overuse issues in the backcountry through the LNT social media suggestions is an exercise in futility. I don't think it can even protect the as yet undiscovered by the masses gems. I think the real emphasis needs to be placed on proper backcountry practices. And if some places begin to be degraded through overuse, then there should be limits placed on access by the land managers.

Why view it as futile and not as a step towards shifting the norms of sharing information? I've noticed in the last year or so that on various social media platforms more people seem to be following the guidelines (even before they were officially released) and feel justified in not sharing the exact location of the lake, waterfall or whatever it is in their picture. They seem to be more comfortable saying "A lot of places have seen overuse in recent years from getting hyped up on social media, so I'd rather just say this was in ONP and leave it up to you to grab a map and explore : )" Having the support of LNT to back them up on this approach is a genuine benefit and helps dispel the notions of being an "elitist".

What harm is done by encouraging people to think critically about their role in the promotion of places and how the popularity can result in impacts and use that exceed the capability of the landscape to absorb such use?

Asking for critical thought and responsbility with social media use doesn't detract from anything. Emphasizing proper backcountry practices and having social media guidelines are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, I think they actually overlap in certain ways as one of the LNT principles is "Plan ahead and prepare" -- planning includes learning about the area you're visiting and the issues that are impacting it, such as campsites too close to the lake, improperly buried waste, and campfire impacts. If you have to do a bit more research besides looking at someone's caption of Jade Lake and plugging it into your phone's navigation system, then chances are you might learn things along the way that make you a better steward of the place once you're there.

I agree with you that once places begin to be degraded through overuse there should be limits placed on access, but I think that is extremely unfortunate -- when there is so much land to spread out on -- and should be avoided. I think encouraging people to spread out, do some research, and not hype up places on social media and draw the masses to them can help prevent having to go to limited access management.
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RumiDude
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 1:07 pm 
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joker wrote:
Well on the generations, you yourself seemed to be ascribing some qualities to this named one.

I don't ascribe qualities like millennials are lazy, narcissistic, feel entitled, etc. The one supposed quality/trait ascribed to millennials in this thread was that they were narcissistic. But the reality is as I stated elsewhere, the amount of narcissism is generally a mark of age and not an essential quality of a particular generation. The Bell Curve on these sorts of essential qualities/traits remains remarkably consistent across generations and even cultures.

If you look at the short list I wrote earlier in the thread, each is a result of changing situation. Better educated because there are more opportunities to go further in school than before. More entrepreneurial because they are doing more "side hustles" to compensate for the labor market and stagnant wages. Less brand loyal because there are exponentially more brands. Tech savvy, well duh. And despite all the really bad health information floating around about health science, there is also much good science on health, which accounts for health conscious and changing attitudes about getting drunk.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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RumiDude
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 1:11 pm 
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Joseph wrote:
Better educated?  Hmm.. that is debatable, as are many of your other claims in your post.

It's debatable only if you ignore the data gathered.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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joker
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 2:30 pm 
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RumiDude wrote:
If you look at the short list I wrote earlier in the thread, each is a result of changing situation.

Right. The sort of cause of "generational differences" that transcend consistent-over-the-decades life stage differences that I referred to earlier. I suppose there's some relevance to this discussion in that the  "millennials" appear to indeed be focused on "health" and "experiences" which appears to be leading them to get into the outdoors at a pretty high rate compared to prior generations. At least that's what the limited data I've seen tells  me. In and of itself, this is a good thing, I think. I don't know if that qualifies as good "explanatory use" as I'm not sure what you mean by that term.
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joker
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 2:35 pm 
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In any case I'll  repeat that  I think it's interesting to explore  what might be the social media equivalent of Harvey Manning's  "go from 100 hikes to 500 hikes" effort. I think that one piece is holding back from certain types of posts - piling on about trending  spots for instance. But otoh if it became cool to share places people aren't commonly seeing reported on, and to be an "explorer" to commonly turns up such places, then social media might rapidly go WAY past what Manning and Spring were able to do in going to 5 paper-based book  volumes. That might have a more virtuous result than simply clamming up entirely...
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markweth
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 3:53 pm 
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joker wrote:
In any case I'll  repeat that  I think it's interesting to explore  what might be the social media equivalent of Harvey Manning's  "go from 100 hikes to 500 hikes" effort. I think that one piece is holding back from certain types of posts - piling on about trending  spots for instance. But otoh if it became cool to share places people aren't commonly seeing reported on, and to be an "explorer" to commonly turns up such places, then social media might rapidly go WAY past what Manning and Spring were able to do in going to 5 paper-based book  volumes. That might have a more virtuous result than simply clamming up entirely...

I think this is an interesting concept. I would prefer that people just post something like "Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest" -- to entice folks to explore the whole area -- rather than captioning it as "Upper Cathedral Lake, Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest".


Ultimately, I just want to see people amazed and inspired by the almost limitless opportunities to get outisde and explore that abound, rather than feeling like the only places worth going are those that they see others post about on social media.
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hbb
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 4:16 pm 
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joker wrote:
I think it's interesting to explore  what might be the social media equivalent of Harvey Manning's  "go from 100 hikes to 500 hikes" effort.

Isn't this it? On the just the first page of the Trip Report forum today, there are reports from Spain, Norway, New Zeland, Oregon, California, Montana and darn near every major region of Washington.
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RumiDude
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 4:43 pm 
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joker wrote:
I don't know if that qualifies as good "explanatory use" as I'm not sure what you mean by that term.

Simply, does it explain something? To say that millennials are better educated than prior generations is almost meaningless, because it doesn't explain anything. The fact is that in the scientific age, every generation is better educated than prior ones. And not just more people with more degrees, but actually with higher IQs, i.e. the Flynn Effect. Talking about these things as generational is misleading, partly because the marking off of generations is arbitrary. Generational studies have largely been a tool of marketing rather than a scientific study of a phenomenon.

In the case of individuals focused on "health" and "experiences" the explanation is not their age or when they were born but rather information and insight gained through education. So the more true health information we give people, the more likely they will focus on their health and healthy experiences. This means we need to continue providing more and better health information to people as well as notifying us that the many resulting activities like wilderness recreation will increase. Thus we need to prepare strategies to meet the challenge of increased wilderness recreation.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 6:33 pm 
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Thanks. That explains a lot  wink.gif
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