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Randito
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PostSun Nov 25, 2018 4:08 pm 
Joseph wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
Where's my option for opting out of the state taxes used to pay for football and baseball stadiums for couch potatoes to watch millionaires play ball? Where may I opt out of the federal taxes used to pay for a new fleets of aircraft carriers, fighter aircraft and tanks so excessive in number that the army simply mothballs them?
I think its called elections. You get to vote for leaders who are in support of spending $$ on defense more wisely / efficiently. Maybe you're an expect in defense spending, how many aircraft carriers we need, tanks, etc. If so, maybe you should run for office.
That's hilarious, as the initiative to fund the Mariners stadium was voted down by the electorate, but the legislature then passed a bill publicly funding the field. Special Interests lobby the Legislature and Congress to fund spending that makes those Special Interests tons of money, but preservation, conservation and recreational interests just don't have the money to buy the required number of senators.

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kevperro
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PostSun Nov 25, 2018 7:29 pm 
joker wrote:
kevperro wrote:
Yes.... I agree. We should subsidize wild space and habitats. That doesn't mean we need to subsidize your ability to play in it.
Recreating on our public lands has a well-proven public health benefit. Even holding aside the benefits from physical exercise from activities like hiking, even just being outside in places like wooded and alpine environments has been shown in multiple peer-reviewed studies to have a significant mental health benefit. Add to that the fact that drawing recreationalists to public lands quite often gives an economic boost to neighboring communities (similar in nature to the stadium funding argument, though also I think just as argued on just how much it really helps, which varies a LOT from venue to venue). I think this all adds up to a good justification for some level of public subsidy, though I have no problem with some degree of user fees (which we have in place today - I paid several on a recent swing through the Southwest for instance). I think it's important for this resource to be accessible to folks across the economic spectrum, and that the public be encouraged to use this resource (these resources).
I think there is some reasonable middle-ground.

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DIYSteve
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 9:51 am 
Pahoehoe wrote:
That's the thing with National Parks. They are suppose to accessible to everyone...
Some NPs are accessible to the general public, some aren't. For example, 99%+ of NCNP is inaccessible to non-hikers and 90%+ of the park is inaccessible to trail hikers. I'm not pointing this out to support imposition of a fee. To the contrary, highly developed NPs (e.g., Yellowstone, Great Smoky) are expensive to construct and maintain. Contrast a 99% wilderness NP (e.g., NCNP), which requires far less money to operate.

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kevperro
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 5:15 pm 
Pahoehoe wrote:
That's the thing with National Parks. They are suppose to accessible to everyone...
I don't have any specific data but I'd bet.... that NP visits even when free is predominantly middle-upper class. They are a resource that by nature requires resources to access/visit even if the entry fee is zero. Just like climbing/backpacking are predominantly middle-class activities. You don't have people scratching by shopping at REI.

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Kim Brown
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 5:23 pm 
You make it seem as if shopping at REI were a requirement for visiting public lands.

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RumiDude
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 5:58 pm 
kevperro wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
That's the thing with National Parks. They are suppose to accessible to everyone...
I don't have any specific data but I'd bet.... that NP visits even when free is predominantly middle-upper class. They are a resource that by nature requires resources to access/visit even if the entry fee is zero. Just like climbing/backpacking are predominantly middle-class activities. You don't have people scratching by shopping at REI.
It doesn't matter what the predominant income demographic is. What matters is that any fee should be within the range of even low income people. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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DIYSteve
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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 7:27 pm 
I seldom see people more than a couple hours off-trail in NCNP, but a good share of the few I see are dirtbags.
kevperro wrote:
I don't have any specific data but I'd bet.... that NP visits even when free is predominantly middle-upper class.
Well, that begs the definition of a woefully vague term. It'd be interesting to have data on how much respective income classes spend on recreation. I know plenty of working class people that spend significantly more on recreation (e.g., fishing boats, hunting rifles, gear and tags, ATVs, 5th wheel toy haulers, snowmobiles, motorcycles, etc.) than most professional class people I know.

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PostMon Nov 26, 2018 8:25 pm 
kevperro wrote:
I don't have any specific data but I'd bet.... that NP visits even when free is predominantly middle-upper class.
So.... all those college kids I run into up on the trail at ONP are "middle-upper class" ? That's a hoot. lol.gif

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Pahoehoe
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 8:40 am 
DIYSteve wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
That's the thing with National Parks. They are suppose to accessible to everyone...
Some NPs are accessible to the general public, some aren't. For example, 99%+ of NCNP is inaccessible to non-hikers and 90%+ of the park is inaccessible to trail hikers. I'm not pointing this out to support imposition of a fee. To the contrary, highly developed NPs (e.g., Yellowstone, Great Smoky) are expensive to construct and maintain. Contrast a 99% wilderness NP (e.g., NCNP), which requires far less money to operate.
The idea of "accessible to all" is that parks would have a main "road" with front county attractions (view points, educational displays, etc) that was accessible to just about anyone. The rest of the parks should be left relatively wild. In the beginning, parks were only accessible to weathly people who could afford to pay for guides and horses and mules to haul them and their stuff plus could also afford to be away from their work for weeks at a time or young, strong types that didn't have responsibilities they couldn't shirk.. The popularity of the car, Steven Mathers and the growing middle class changed that. Obviously, some parks have more front country attractions than others. The point is that they belong to everyone, and everyone should be able to visit them... ie, see the reason it's a national park, have a picnic, listen to an interpretive talk, etc.

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Pahoehoe
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 8:41 am 
Ski wrote:
kevperro wrote:
I don't have any specific data but I'd bet.... that NP visits even when free is predominantly middle-upper class.
So.... all those college kids I run into up on the trail at ONP are "middle-upper class" ? That's a hoot. lol.gif
Ummm. Yes. Most college students are middle and upper class. What rock have you been hiding under?

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Pahoehoe
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 8:47 am 
kevperro wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
That's the thing with National Parks. They are suppose to accessible to everyone...
I don't have any specific data but I'd bet.... that NP visits even when free is predominantly middle-upper class. They are a resource that by nature requires resources to access/visit even if the entry fee is zero. Just like climbing/backpacking are predominantly middle-class activities. You don't have people scratching by shopping at REI.
Umm, you can go for a hike on a well traveled trail with things solely bought at thrift stores. You don't have to climb or backpack to enjoy a national park. Some people just want to enjoy the view and have a picnic. That's ok, right?

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kevperro
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 9:50 am 
RumiDude wrote:
It doesn't matter what the predominant income demographic is. What matters is that any fee should be within the range of even low income people.
That sort of policy is largely symbolic. We foster kids and work at a homeless shelter. Those living in poverty get zero benefits from free entrance to National Parks. What they need are basic services and programs to move them out of poverty. So draw the line where you wish, but the people who most need help are not impacted one iota by entrance fees to National Parks. In fact, since it is a resource that is funded by our taxes, and used more by upper-income groups, it is in effect regressive in nature. I for one see no issue with user fees that are reasonable to maintain our public lands. The most efficient way to manage resources is to charge fees to the groups who most utilize the asset. That is why I like gas taxes or carbon taxes. You directly attach a fee to the utilization of the resource and those who use it, pay for it in proportion to the value they place upon it.

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Randito
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 10:33 am 
kevperro wrote:
You directly attach a fee to the utilization of the resource and those who use it, pay for it in proportion to the value they place upon it.
Cool, how do we structure that so that oil companies pay for 90% of our military spending, as they are the primary beneficiaries of our current military operations.

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Pahoehoe
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 1:07 pm 
kevperro wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
It doesn't matter what the predominant income demographic is. What matters is that any fee should be within the range of even low income people.
That sort of policy is largely symbolic. We foster kids and work at a homeless shelter. Those living in poverty get zero benefits from free entrance to National Parks. What they need are basic services and programs to move them out of poverty. So draw the line where you wish, but the people who most need help are not impacted one iota by entrance fees to National Parks. In fact, since it is a resource that is funded by our taxes, and used more by upper-income groups, it is in effect regressive in nature. I for one see no issue with user fees that are reasonable to maintain our public lands. The most efficient way to manage resources is to charge fees to the groups who most utilize the asset. That is why I like gas taxes or carbon taxes. You directly attach a fee to the utilization of the resource and those who use it, pay for it in proportion to the value they place upon it.
I don't think this is true. Sure, a family in crisis and literally homeless isnt likely to visit a national park, but plenty of families living below or close to the poverty line recreate outside. If there is a national park near by I can see a huge benefit for a program that takes low income, disadvantaged, struggling families outdoors for a weekend. Poor families still need time to bond, rest, play together, learn together. I can't think of a better place than a in national park..

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RumiDude
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 2:53 pm 
kevperro wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
It doesn't matter what the predominant income demographic is. What matters is that any fee should be within the range of even low income people.
That sort of policy is largely symbolic. We foster kids and work at a homeless shelter. Those living in poverty get zero benefits from free entrance to National Parks. What they need are basic services and programs to move them out of poverty. So draw the line where you wish, but the people who most need help are not impacted one iota by entrance fees to National Parks. In fact, since it is a resource that is funded by our taxes, and used more by upper-income groups, it is in effect regressive in nature.
So because some people are in effect destitute and are simply focused on the essentials of staying alive, we can't price entrance and use fees so that the low income families/individuals can access our public lands? I live within walking distance to ONP. I think entrance fees should make it possible so that any low income family/individual can enjoy a trip to ONP, even if it is just to drive up to Hurricane Ridge and walk the short trails there or up to Hurricane hill. Maybe in the winter they would like getting out in the wonderful snow for a couple hours up on Hurricane Ridge. Oops, only if they can afford $30 to access a National Park. (Yea, I think $30 is too much.)
kevperro wrote:
That is why I like gas taxes or carbon taxes.
You do realize those taxes are regressive? The people most negatively affected by those taxes are those in severe poverty. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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