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nordique
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PostTue Dec 04, 2018 6:46 pm 
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From the Mountaineers:

We recently learned that Washington State DNR lands will be under permit in 2019. What does that mean?

·   Anything fee-based requires a permit, regardless of number of participants. This includes all activities that are exclusively for course participants such as field trips, SIG outings and conditioners.

·  On NRCA Land, all free and fee-based activities with more than 12 participants require a permit.

·  On State Forest Land, all free and fee-based activities with more than 25 participants require a permit.

We must submit our 2019 dates and party sizes by Friday, December 28th. This means that if you plan to take your group to any of the places listed below, we need you to list those trips on our website no later than Friday December 21.  We realize this is a quick turn-around, and we apologize for the short notice. We are in the midst of working with the DNR staff to better understand their expectations of us and how we can operate our educational programs while complying with their land management requirements. For now, we’ve been given direction to submit a permit application for all of our 2019 dates by the end of 2018.

Tips:

·         If applicable, clarify in your description whether your scheduled field trip/conditioner/trip will be on trail or off trail. While we can’t make promises, DNR seems less concerned about some off-trail travel than they do about large groups on the trails.

·         Keep your groups small when possible. We’ll submit all requests, including some of the large groups of 50 that have done conditioners on those lands in the past, but we believe smaller groups will be more likely to receive permits.


What if I want to add a trip in the spring, after the permit deadline? Unfortunately, we don’t know. We’re working with DNR on figuring out how to both make their lives easy by submitting only one permit in January, but also allow flexibility for our volunteer leaders. It’s a slow process though, as this permitting process is new for them, and they’ve got a lot on their plates. We will do our best to help you get permits if you choose dates after the deadline, but can’t make promises.

Please take a look at the route/places below, and make sure you list yours on our website by Friday, December 21! If you have any questions in the meantime, please contact Amanda, our Volunteer Services Representative, who is the main contact for all things permitting within The Mountaineers. Her email is amandav@mountaineers.org

Thanks in advance!

State Forest (ALL fee-based activities; all free activities over 25 people)

Around South Tiger Mountain

Bob Bammert Grove

Capitol Peak

Cherry Creek Falls

East Tiger Mountain

Fuzzy Top

Green Mountain Loop

Green Mountain Loop (Kitsap Peninsula)

Green Mountain: Gold Creek Trail

Green Mountain: Wildcat Trail

Irondale to Chimicum Creek

Iverson Railroad & Artifacts Trails

Lake Fenwick, Kent via the Rabbit Loop

Little Larch Mountain

Lost Valley Loop

McDonald Mountain

McLane Creek Nature Trail

Middle Tiger Mountain

Mima Falls

Porter Falls

Porter Trail

Rock Candy Mountain

Salt Water State Park

NRCA (ALL fee-based activities; all free activities over 12 people)

Cypress & Strawberry Islands

Granite Creek Trail

Mailbox Peak

Ashland Lakes

Greider Lakes

Crater Lake Mountain

Exit 32

Picnic Rock (Exit 32)

Mount Teneriffe/Serendipity Ridge

Little Si/Meditation Rock

Teneriffe Falls Loop

Mount Teneriffe (winter)

Kamikaze (Teneriffe) Falls

Dixie Peak

Talus Loop trail

Si, Si Again

Mount Si Old Trail

Little Si

Mount Teneriffe

Mount Si Main Trail

Paradise Valley Conservation Area

West Tiger Mountain 1-2-3

Tiger Mountain

Tiger Mountain Lowlands

West Tiger Mountain Railroad Grade

Tiger Mountain Trail

West Tiger Mountain No. 3 Cable Line

West Tiger Mountain 1 & 2

Tradition Lake Interpretive Shelter

West Tiger Mountain No. 1

Poo Poo Point

West Tiger Mountain No. 3

Hidden Tiger

Dirty Harry's Balcony & East Balcony via Putrid Pete Trail

Dirty Harry's Balcony (winter)

Woodard Bay
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iron
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PostTue Dec 04, 2018 6:57 pm 
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so basically this notice only applies to nordique's groups that are 25+ people?

confused.gif

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Kim Brown
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PostTue Dec 04, 2018 8:04 pm 
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Nordique knows better than me of course, but it sounds like an organization needs a commercial permit if they charge for a course (fee-based), the group needs a use permit for each fee-based outing. The Mountaineers are working with DNR to obtain ONE annual permit in January.  Sounds like an iteration of USFS' commercial permit.

I don't think they are including  annual dues as a fee-based trip (as in paying  Mountaineers dues and signing up for a hike).

I don't know what "field trip/conditioner" trip means; perhaps these are a part of a  fee-based course?

If not, then perhaps like The Mountaineers are playing it safe and getting permits for everything until the thing is clarified/worked out?

I think I'm repeating myself. (2nd glass of wine with dinner)

Just a guess; I don't think this applies to a bunch of freinds going out.

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" I'm really happy about this! … I have very strong good and horrible memories up there."  – oldgranola, NWH’s outdoors advocate.
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uww
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PostTue Dec 04, 2018 8:52 pm 
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Kim Brown wrote:
Just a guess; I don't think this applies to a bunch of freinds going out.

That’s my interpretation too. Unless your bunch of friends is over the 12/25 line, or this is a commercial activity, this does not apply to you.

I rarely see 12+ parties, and it’s often a youth group if anything. I believe the Mointaineers had an official letter of approval or something they tell leaders to be aware of for backcountry groups, but I doubt every random large group was aware of any group size restrictions.
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joker
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PostTue Dec 04, 2018 8:58 pm 
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iron wrote:
so basically this notice only applies to nordique's groups that are 25+ people?

confused.gif

Or 12+ in the case of NRCA land, apparently... So, like for instance Gothic Basin and Walt Bailey Trail and  some  other  stuff in this one https://www.dnr.wa.gov/MorningStar
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Kim Brown
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PostWed Dec 05, 2018 9:45 am 
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Ah! Yes, the group size. I know the Conditioner series in The Mountaineers is very popular!

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" I'm really happy about this! … I have very strong good and horrible memories up there."  – oldgranola, NWH’s outdoors advocate.
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nordique
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PostWed Dec 05, 2018 9:47 am 
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I assume that my three-hikes-a-week geezer group does not fall under these new rules.  I just sent out an email about what hike we are doing on Thursday and I've no idea what we might do Saturday--so we do not plan events far ahead.  We are a not a fee-based group (though I do accept a free mocha once in a while).  No newsletter, rules, or dues.  I'm too lazy to keep track of how many geezers come on our hikes though I do always take a trailhead photo.  Even when our groups are big, like yesterday's 18 (with three different subgroups each going to a different highpoint), we tend to get spread out into much smaller groups--though the people taking photos are usually well off the back.  This regulation is probably a good idea for commercial operations.
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Malachai Constant
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PostWed Dec 05, 2018 9:49 am 
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The only thing I can think of is The Thursday OSAT meeting on Tiger 3 but I assume the will easily get a permit.

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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joker
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PostWed Dec 05, 2018 10:10 am 
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Does TNAB still exist? I only joined for one outing but it seemed like it was heading toward a pretty big attendance level at that point...

nordique wrote:
We are a not a fee-based group (though I do accept a free mocha once in a while).  No newsletter, rules, or dues.

If the Mountaineers text you posted is accurate, then none of that  matters if the size of your group  ends up  exceeding the limits noted, eh? Though if you break into smaller groups (smaller than the limits)  at the TH and stay separate throughout I would imagine it's OK.


I haven't seen huge MeetUp groups  lately but I would guess they are still happening here and there...
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BigBrunyon
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PostWed Dec 05, 2018 10:59 pm 
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Probably gonna start seeing an increase in camo demand at retailers catering to the more hiking crowd now that more groups may be forced to operate covert if they didn't get the pass

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RandyHiker
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PostThu Dec 06, 2018 12:59 am 
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I suspect this has less to do with the Mountaineers than it does with AIRBNB "activities" where tourists can sign up for and pay a fee for a local guide to take hike or "forest bath".  Perhaps it's a crack down on "The Outing Club" which has long skirted rules concerning guiding and special use permits
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