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cascadeclimber
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PostFri Jan 11, 2019 8:29 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
The meta point of the article is that if trails are engineered to handle it, massive traffic isn't a problem.

The "new" start of the Cable Line, complete with its imported gravel, proper grade, and signage, is eroding. Before the DNR/WTA 'fixed' the start by cutting down trees, building fences, and putting up the sign, there was considerably less traffic on that trail and considerably less erosion. And crap piles.

Not every trail needs to be built to the same standard. Not every trail needs a massive parking lot and signs and maps. Sure, build a highway to Snow Lake. Pave with asphalt the trails immediately above Paradise, and fragile meadows are fragile. But these west slope trails in second and third growth forests that are steep and direct and rough are not any sort of environmental crisis, regardless of some inches or even a few feet of erosion, and they are important assets to some of us.

Witness the short, steep old end of the Poo Poo trail to the south launch that the DNR closed with a sign and fence and cutting down trees with a "Protect the Environment" sign. Meanwhile they cut down more trees to flatten out even more the 'regular' finish and then clearcut down to the ground 20+ acres just on the other side of the launch. But yes, that old 50 yards of trail through blackberries was an environmental catastrophe.

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Malachai Constant
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PostFri Jan 11, 2019 10:04 am 
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CC good points. huh.gif

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cascadeclimber
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PostSat Jan 12, 2019 5:26 pm 
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To whit. The red line (which you can't even see in the thumbnail) is the old "Face" finish of the Poo Poo trail ending at the south launch. It was closed (fences, felled trees, signs) to "protect the environment". It ran through Himalayan blackberry, alder, and other thorned brush. Meanwhile, just to the east, The DNR is also very busy, but apparently much, much less concerned about "protecting the environment". I just don't see any reason that, in the face of massive clearcuts that are entirely okay, the sort of trail on which I prefer to hike can't be left alone. Again talking about west slope, 2nd and 3rd growth forest here, NOT fragile alpine terrain.


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Kascadia
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PostSat Jan 12, 2019 7:11 pm 
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rant.gif    lol.gif   

https://www.wta.org/go-hiking/trip-reports/trip_report.2019-01-12.6136627993


True these issues, but served with a large side of entitlement.
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Anne Elk
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PostSat Jan 12, 2019 8:30 pm 
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^^^  up.gif  up.gif  If more people write about the serious abuse of trails in the forums most frequented by newbies and naifs, - "hikertainment types"  - as the WTA report post called 'em - a new avenue for educating these folks might emerge and have an impact.

Kaskadia wrote:
served with a large side of entitlement

"Entitlement" is usually used pejoratively, and often rightly so. The converse in a case such as this would be to argue that everyone has a right to access, no matter how they abuse the right and desecrate that which they're using.  Rights come with responsibilities.

Meanwhile, over at Joshua Tree during the continuing shutdown: Washington Post report

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Kim Brown
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PostSat Jan 12, 2019 9:26 pm 
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Kascadia wrote:
True these issues, but served with a large side of entitlement.

Perceived entitlement.

The poster sounds like a pompous ass.

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Waterman
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PostSun Jan 13, 2019 7:41 am 
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Thought it was the second  coming of the TAH.


I can understand his point.

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,I took the one less traveled by. And that has made all the difference.
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cascadeclimber
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PostSun Jan 13, 2019 5:57 pm 
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Kascadia wrote:
rant.gif    lol.gif   

https://www.wta.org/go-hiking/trip-reports/trip_report.2019-01-12.6136627993


True these issues, but served with a large side of entitlement.

I didn't write that, but I agree with most of it. The DNR and WTA relationship is far to close, unsupervised, and lacks accountability. They are, together, annihilating the few remaining places to get a good workout and some solitude, especially in winter months. And they keep building new things that require maintenance, without taking care of the things they have. They can build a giant ass parking lot, but can't be bothered to do any crap-pick-up or leash enforcement on the trails.

Again, for those who've missed in the 20 other times I've stated, I'm not against trails like Snow Lake and "New" Si and "New" Kamikaze Falls. I just don't like hiking on them, at all. If you do, bully for you. There are MANY such trails now, including 90+ miles of them on Tiger alone. Enjoy. And...please let's stop destroying the other kind of trail...old Kamikaze, old Mailbox, old Cable Line start, etc. because they don't meet someone's singular idea of a 'good' trail. Are they steep and do they erode some? Yes. And the latter, I posit, presents exactly zero environmental consequence in west slope 2nd and 3rd growth forest. Don't like the aesthetic of the old Mailbox trail? I understand. Solution: Hike on another trail.

I don't understand why people who dare push back on people for leaving dog sh##, blaring radios, smoking, or seeks some quiet, etc. on trails are "entitled" while the people whose behavior so negatively impacts others are somehow reasonable users victimized by people who don't want to listen to their cell phone (or worse, bluetooth speaker) blaring R. Kelly misogynistic lyrics. Or, for pointing out the hypocrisy of the DNR/WTA for creating problems (like erosion) that they whinge about.

Indeed, if you only see one right way to do things, who really is narrow-minded and entitled??

One good thing I noticed today: The "No Parking" signs in what used to be a parking lot at Mailbox but is now the bus turnaround are covered up and I parked there today without consequence. So there's ONE sensible decision. I still don't understand why they didn't use the upper parking lot for the bus turnaround, since it only runs during the summer and when the gate is open, but still, I'll cling to one bit of sanity for now.

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neek
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PostSun Jan 13, 2019 9:13 pm 
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Sounds like someone ran into cascadeclimber at the top (https://www.wta.org/go-hiking/trip-reports/trip_report.2019-01-13.4637960570).  Anyway, nice to see some lively discussion on the WTA site for a change.

Doing Mailbox on a weekend is looney tunes.  I went Thursday (both trails) and saw maybe 4 people.

I agree, blocking off old trails is lame, and even wonder if doing things like that encourages people who prefer efficient routes to cut switchbacks on stupid-angle trails they're then forced onto.  What I'd do for a staircase up to Cascade Pass...

And anyone who thinks the ability to hop in a car and drive 100 miles to do a completely useless activity like climb a mountain doesn't make them entitled is out of touch with most people's reality.  We're all incredibly entitled and need to stop using words like that as insults.  There's no shame in having good luck.
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Doppelganger
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PostMon Jan 14, 2019 8:09 am 
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Interesting to see these two opposed perspectives presented to us in (essentially) social media. Can't really ignore the timing, content and tone of the reports in relation to each other wink.gif

I appreciate some of the points made in both WTA TRs. Not much progress is gonna be made if cranky oldsters are scowling and huffing their way past new hikers like that though. Not sure what the proper outlet might be for justified frustration such as felt by CC or CDixon either but I'm leaning towards starting with the "hey it's kind of nice out here" message of the second WTA report smile.gif
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treeswarper
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PostMon Jan 14, 2019 2:15 pm 
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Parking Lots are deforestation.

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What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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RandyHiker
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PostMon Jan 14, 2019 5:53 pm 
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Doppelganger wrote:
Not sure what the proper outlet might be for justified frustration such as felt by CC or CDixon either

I suspect that many first nations peoples feel the same way about all these upstarts moving into the area from other continents and ruining everything.

Now if either those kvetchers have ancestors who walked here from Asia 100 centuries ago, I'd empathize more with their pain.

I've been hiking in the Cascades since the early '60s and I really like seeing young folks getting out and enjoying the mountains, even when they are sharing their hip hop music via bluetooth speakers with everyone within 150 feet.
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