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reststep
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PostThu Jan 03, 2019 12:44 pm 
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Article on crosscut about the Enchantments.

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"The mountains are calling and I must go." - John Muir
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Cyclopath
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PostThu Jan 03, 2019 6:03 pm 
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I like the guy who's announcing he cheats every year and has everyone he knows enter to improve his odds.  What's he going to do if that infant nephew wins?
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BigBrunyon
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PostThu Jan 03, 2019 7:43 pm 
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When you're up there campin' up there in those locations, its the REAL DEAL

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Yarr what y'eat
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Sky Hiker
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PostFri Jan 04, 2019 5:39 am 
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More publicity is what that area needs. Good to see hikers out there in their new camping gear
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MtnGoat
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PostFri Jan 04, 2019 10:32 am 
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My fav is the chick clutching her phone.

These humblebragging authors complaining about the damage of high traffic while posting yet more pix of the reasons for the high traffic are not exactly doing the resource any favors.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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treeswarper
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PostFri Jan 04, 2019 1:43 pm 
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This "printing" is a rerun.  The article was posted a couple months ago.

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What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Joseph
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PostSat Jan 05, 2019 10:00 am 
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Best idea from article: “Maybe people who have received permits in the past should have to wait a year before applying again.”

Or wait a couple of years.
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hbb
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PostSat Jan 05, 2019 10:27 am 
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Joseph wrote:
Best idea from article: “Maybe people who have received permits in the past should have to wait a year before applying again.”

Or wait a couple of years.

I see this approach suggested fairly often on this forum, and I never have really understood the logic.

I successfully obtained permits in the lottery three years in a row. I picked entry dates that I believed would be among the least popular, and therefore would give me the greatest chance of obtaining a permit. That approach worked. Why shouldn't I be allowed to continue to submit applications for unpopular dates in subsequent years?

I mean, anyone is free to play the odds. If you put in for a Saturday in the third week of August, well, you are going to have some competition, regardless of whether the folks who picked that same date have obtained permits in the past or not.
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reststep
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PostSat Jan 05, 2019 12:16 pm 
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Just out of curiosity when did you get these permits 3 years in a row?

Was this back when the forest service was running the lottery or was it after recreation.gov started running it?

Were the permits all 3 years for the core area?

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"The mountains are calling and I must go." - John Muir
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Anne Elk
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PostSat Jan 05, 2019 2:42 pm 
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From the Crosscut article:

      "After visiting, some were comfortable with an even more restrictive permitting system."

As a point of comparison, there's a lot more access restriction and enforcement activity happening in the mountain parks of Western Canada these last couple decades. I'm not aware that Canada even has the equivalent of our "wilderness" designation.  Don't know when their current m.o. took hold, nor what their number limits are. But you really take your chances trying to get away with unregistered camping, and you don't just get a warning. Park rangers do helicopter enforcementeek.gif  It gets worse for illegal camping around the Banff townsite,  but that's a different problem, much of it related to affordable housing for seasonal employees, and misc dirtbags.  The last two times I visited Banff (in the 90's) I was caught off-guard by day-hike restrictions in the backcountry behind Moraine Lake (Larch Valley, Sentinal & Wenkchemna Passes, as well as Paradise Valley - just because a grizzly was known to be in the area.  What?  That's a huge area.  You could still do a day hike, but were absolutely required to be in a minimum group of four. So much for my usual m.o. of hitting the trail shortly after dawn (and I was on that trip solo).  This is what the TH warning signs look like.  No clue what triggers that max $5K fine, but I was also told that the wardens had "seizure authorization", ie, not unlike a drug bust here, they had the authority to seize all the equipment used in committing the offence, including your CAR.  No idea if this is actually true, or hyperbole added on for effect.  Nor was it a one-off.  They do regular area closings every season, including areas known for heavy elk concentration declared off-limits during the rut.  DANGER! WILDLIFE! Some of this seemed so ridiculous I began to think they were using any excuse to restrict back-country access to most visitors.

As a final illustration of how they do things in Canada: nine years ago I visited Haida Gwaii (the Queen Charlotte Islands) on a friend's sailboat, and spent around 10 days touring the Gwaii Haanas National Marine Conservation Area Reserve, which is cooperatively administered by the Haida Nation and Parks Canada.  All visitors (including kayakers) not only must get permits first (at one location) but must sit through a program consisting of a video presentation and talk with Q&A concerning proper behavior and LNT practices before being allowed to head out.

My point is that Parks Canada is taking their preservation mandate seriously as well as spending quite a bit for back-country permit enforcement.  Do we need some of this down here?  Probably.  Sure like the Haida Gwaii education requirement.  During a visit to the Olympic beaches last summer, I got the impression that the park rangers weren't doing much on their patrols other than handing out warnings, even to the dingbats I saw who went camping on Rialto with a herd of goats.   mad.gif  Some effort at enforcement with consequences might have a real impact on a lot of the abuses we see. Probably would require "park court", like they have at Yosemite.

Rialto Beach 2018
Rialto Beach 2018

Speaking of goats, with visitor numbers anecdotally estimated in the article as a "steady stream of day hikers who pass us, maybe 30 or so an hour." I wonder how long it will be before there's a run-in between hikers and the Enchantment goats similar to the incident at Hurricane Ridge?

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"There are yahoos out there.  It’s why we can’t have nice things."  - Tom Mahood
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Joseph
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PostSun Jan 06, 2019 10:54 am 
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hbb wrote:
I see this approach suggested fairly often on this forum, and I never have really understood the logic.

I successfully obtained permits in the lottery three years in a row. I picked entry dates that I believed would be among the least popular, and therefore would give me the greatest chance of obtaining a permit. That approach worked. Why shouldn't I be allowed to continue to submit applications for unpopular dates in subsequent years?

I mean, anyone is free to play the odds. If you put in for a Saturday in the third week of August, well, you are going to have some competition, regardless of whether the folks who picked that same date have obtained permits in the past or not.

I totally understand.  But just from a fairness standpoint it makes sense to me. Like, let others who have not obtained a permit get a chance.  But of course, people would probably find a way around such a policy.  The goal should be to provide people with access to the area so they can experience it.  If one person or group keeps getting lucky, maybe its time to let someone else get lucky.  But I get your point.

My brother and dad rode horses to Snow lake then hiked up to the upper enchantments.  That was in the 60's.  The more I hear about everyone and their brother being up there like its Grand central station makes me less and less likely to try for a permit. I am not into the crowds. There are other beautiful areas in the cascades and I will hike where it is less crowded.
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hbb
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PostSun Jan 06, 2019 11:11 am 
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I don’t understand why pack goats at Rialto would be a problem. That is permitted under the park’s stock rules: https://www.nps.gov/olym/planyourvisit/stockuse.htm
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hbb
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PostSun Jan 06, 2019 11:16 am 
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reststep wrote:
Just out of curiosity when did you get these permits 3 years in a row?

Was this back when the forest service was running the lottery or was it after recreation.gov started running it?

Were the permits all 3 years for the core area?

I think it was 1 under the old system followed by 2 under the current system. All core permits.
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Windstorm
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PostMon Jan 07, 2019 10:56 am 
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hbb wrote:
Joseph wrote:
Best idea from article: “Maybe people who have received permits in the past should have to wait a year before applying again.”

Or wait a couple of years.

I see this approach suggested fairly often on this forum, and I never have really understood the logic.

I successfully obtained permits in the lottery three years in a row. I picked entry dates that I believed would be among the least popular, and therefore would give me the greatest chance of obtaining a permit. That approach worked. Why shouldn't I be allowed to continue to submit applications for unpopular dates in subsequent years?

I mean, anyone is free to play the odds. If you put in for a Saturday in the third week of August, well, you are going to have some competition, regardless of whether the folks who picked that same date have obtained permits in the past or not.

What if higher priority was given to people who had applied in previous years, but hadn't gotten a permit? When we took a crew to Philmont Boy Scout Ranch in New Mexico, their system was set up so that every year you applied but didn't get a trip meant you had a better chance the next year. After about 5 years, you were basically guaranteed a trip. A system like that would let people who have been trying for years have a good chance at getting a permit, but since there would still be less competition for the unpopular dates, people who had a permit the year before would still have a chance to get another one.
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Anne Elk
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PostMon Jan 07, 2019 1:01 pm 
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hbb wrote:
I don’t understand why pack goats at Rialto would be a problem. That is permitted under the park’s stock rules: https://www.nps.gov/olym/planyourvisit/stockuse.htm

"Pets" are only permitted at Rialto up to Ellen Creek, and (I believe) all camping must be north of there.  The goats those people had were "mini" goats, and not being used as pack animals.  I see from the reference you cited that "stock animals" are barred from all Olympic beaches except (inexplicably) on Rialto up to Hole in the Wall.  Rules are also quite clear re feeding confining such animals, which I somehow doubt these people were doing.  Perhaps these individuals were attempting to exploit the loophole.  Also, they had a dog. Illegal in the designated camping areas for Rialto.

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"There are yahoos out there.  It’s why we can’t have nice things."  - Tom Mahood
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