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PostThu Jan 17, 2019 3:09 pm 
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Guidelines for posting in a dog thread  angel.gif

You shall make no more than 1 post in a dog thread unless you have posted or replied to a trip report (or photo) since your last visit.  Thanking someone for their contribution goes a long way to building and fostering a sense of community!


Wiki summmary last edited by Tom on Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:01 pm (this post can be edited by any member)
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Pahoehoe
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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 1:12 pm 
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Chief Joseph wrote:
JonnyQuest wrote:
Heck, my mom has been a quadriplegic for 52 years (since I was one), and we still use the term "handicapped" sometimes. Sure, we're aware that "disabled" is the preferred term de jour. But when you actually think about the two words, I'm not sure handicapped is more derogatory. Give it 10-20 years and the term disabled will probably fall out of fashion in favor of something else

I don't understand why people find certain terms so "offensive" when the two terms mean exactly the same thing, it's just a word after all, not an action.  confused.gif

It seems that many people are overly sensitive about things that don't really matter in the big picture, why not focus on things that really matter and that one has control over?

One can play the victim card all they want and complain about things they cannot change (other people) or they can focus on the positive and on things that they can change and things that are more important.

Sure, certain races have been treated horribly in the past, but much progress has been made and the past cannot be undone, so why not focus on the positive and work to change the things they can?

I venture to guess that no matter how much progress is made, some people will always complain, feel sorry for themselves, be angry toward others, and play the "victim card".

These are not positive things and will not work toward advancing their cause, but will continue to cause divisive feelings.

No.  Very few two words mean the same thing.  Tons of factors are at play like historical use, where the word came from, etc.

I could say I'm going to go cut up some bundles of fire wood and everyone would know exactly what I mean.

Or I could say I was going to go cut up some faggots...

I could say I teach retards.  Or I could say I teach children with learning and developmental disabilities...

Words matter.  A lot.

As for the "victim card" what about people who are victims?  What are they suppose to do?  Just shut up about it?
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RandyHiker
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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 1:37 pm 
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Chief Joseph wrote:
Do you really think that a person who is disabled to that level actually worries about a term that is mildly (if at all) offensive? I would think they have bigger problems to address and worry about.

Almost certainly they do have more critical issues to deal with...  but having other people use dismissive or denigrating language is like adding rocks to their backpack. 

Why do know nothings think it is an unbearable burden to be thoughtful and kind in the words that come from their mouth?  Why is being lazy and ignorant seen as something worth defending?
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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 1:39 pm 
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Chief Joseph wrote:
I don't understand why people find certain terms so "offensive" when the two terms mean exactly the same thing, it's just a word after all, not an action.

It seems that many people are overly sensitive about things that don't really matter in the big picture, why not focus on things that really matter and that one has control over?

One can play the victim card all they want and complain about things they cannot change (other people) or they can focus on the positive and on things that they can change and things that are more important.

Sure, certain races have been treated horribly in the past, but much progress has been made and the past cannot be undone, so why not focus on the positive and work to change the things they can?

I venture to guess that no matter how much progress is made, some people will always complain, feel sorry for themselves, be angry toward others, and play the "victim card".

These are not positive things and will not work toward advancing their cause, but will continue to cause divisive feelings.

Thanks for stating it far more diplomatically than I would have.
Not yet mentioned is the fact that all the bitching and whining about relatively insignificant things results in people tuning out.
That may not matter if you're not concerned about whether or not you're being heard.
My mother told me a long time ago to choose my battles carefully.
This foofaraw about "many moons" is the zenith of making mountains out of molehills.

As for my comment above about the drunk Irish potato eaters: I suppose the plight of the Irish is of little consequence to anyone in the current era, but to those who were literally living in the ditches on the sides of the roads when they were thrown out of their homes by Oliver Cromwell, or those who were greeted when they got off the boat at Ellis Island with signs at the front doors of factories saying "No Irish", the perspective might be a bit different.

The plight of the Native American Indian isn't all that much different than that of the Australian Aborigine or the Native Hawaiian population or any number of ethnic groups and cultures that over time have been subjugated by others.
The earth did not stop rotating on its axis as a result of any of that, and the vast majority of people have greater concerns in their daily lives than worrying about people whining about what's "politically correct" or who's going to be "offended" by some off-the-cuff remark that is, in the end, innocuous.

As for the comment about "disabled": what a load of rot. Who on this forum thinks they're qualified to speak for all people with disabilities? What do you actually know first hand about long-term illness and disability?

On the other hand, maybe I'd feel better if I just chose to play victim and curl up into a fetal position in the corner and feel sorry for myself.

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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 1:44 pm 
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Right. I take my cue on such questions from the people who are being labelled or imitated through such language. And I've seen more than one wheelchair-bound person or otherwise differently-abled person explain why they don't like being labelled as "handicapped." There are some  relevant comments on some of the reasons why above, but in any case it just seems like very common courtesy to respect such  wishes. Even if it might subject one to risk being  labelled as that awful thing - "politically correct."
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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 1:51 pm 
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I'm sure I could grab a few labels and wear them on my sleeve, Jim, but I prefer not to.
I just accept that I'm less than what I'd like to be and try not to bitch about it too much.
As for the "labels" - none of that is even relevant in my world. I couldn't possibly care less.

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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 1:57 pm 
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Ski wrote:
I couldn't possibly care less

It shows.
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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 2:26 pm 
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philfort wrote:
JonnyQuest wrote:
Heck, my mom has been a quadriplegic for 52 years (since I was one), and we still use the term "handicapped" sometimes. Sure, we're aware that "disabled" is the preferred term de jour. But when you actually think about the two words, I'm not sure handicapped is more derogatory. Give it 10-20 years and the term disabled will probably fall out of fashion in favor of something else.

I'm not sure if this was a joke or not, but "disabled" is already seen as offensive. "Differently-abled" is the preferred term now.

Actually, this was not intended as a joke.  Earlier in the thread when the term "handicapped" was used as an example of what not to say, I asked myself "why not".  I've been somewhat aware that the term has been replaced by "disabled".  For example, "disabled parking permit" is now used in place of "handicapped parking permit".  So I Googled to see if / why the term handicapped is offensive.  Many of the top returns mentioned that the term "disabled" is now the preferred term.  Didn't see much mentioned on the term "differently-abled".  I can certainly attest that my mom or no one else in my family has used "differently-abled" when speaking about my mom's disabilities.  I guess it all depends on the source...

Again, I see this conversation as a learning opportunity.  PHH mentioned that tons of factors are at play, such as historical use of the term, where the words came from, etc.  But without knowing up front that a term is considered offensive, one has no reason to start researching the history.
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Pahoehoe
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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 2:33 pm 
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JonnyQuest wrote:
But without knowing up front that a term is considered offensive, one has no reason to start researching the history

Once someone expresses their feeling about it a person has lots of options as how to proceed.

Most people just want to be heard and understood.

Maybe listen?  Ask google?  Give people the benefit of doubt?  Understand that many people have many challenges that you might not be able to see?


Also..

https://www.diffen.com/difference/Disability_vs_Handicap
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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 2:52 pm 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
Once someone expresses their feeling about it a person has lots of options as how to proceed.

Fully agree.  Which is why I find value in this thread.
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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 3:27 pm 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
Also..https://www.diffen.com/difference/Disability_vs_Handicap

Pulled this quote from the link.

Disabled people do not have to be handicapped, especially if they can find a way around their disability. For example, braille for the visually impaired or wheel chairs for those who cannot walk.


Not sure I agree.  My mom's wheel chairs are tools that help to some degree with her mobility.  But they are certainly not a complete remedy for, or "a way around", her disability.  And while I have limited experience with the blind, I'm guessing braille isn't the be-all end-all either.
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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 3:31 pm 
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Ski wrote:
As for the comment about "disabled": what a load of rot. Who on this forum thinks they're qualified to speak for all people with disabilities? What do you actually know first hand about long-term illness and disability?

The "disabled" vs "differently-abled" thing actually came from a friend of mine who has a child with cerebral palsy.

Also, calling someone "different" also seems like it could be offensive.

So... I dunno???
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Anne Elk
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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 3:40 pm 
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I won't repost his comment, but what Neek said on pg 7 of this thread is spot-on: a great paraphrase for one approach to self-development and wisdom cultivation that has stood the test of centuries. (Not thought up by any historical person of status, BTW) It should be a wiki summary for a topic on ... something.  up.gif

Pahoehoe wrote:
  You are all looking at this through your lens of privilege.

That's the current favorite way to be dismissive of anyone and anything, and shuts down dialogue.  There isn't a person alive who isn't looking at things through the lens of their own upbringing. Some of the lenses are more distorted than others; regardless of their history and position in the social pecking order.

IanB wrote:
Threads like this one are part of what makes NWHikers great.  Opinion, disagreement.  Offense taken, discourse, resolution (or not.)  Injected levity.  Philosophical rumination.  And drift... it's almost exactly like what happens when real people meet in real places - and have a real conversation.


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Chief Joseph
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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 5:26 pm 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
No. Very few two words mean the same thing. Tons of factors are at play like historical use, where the word came from, etc.

I could say I'm going to go cut up some bundles of fire wood and everyone would know exactly what I mean.

Or I could say I was going to go cut up some faggots...

I could say I teach retards. Or I could say I teach children with learning and developmental disabilities...

Words matter. A lot.

As for the "victim card" what about people who are victims? What are they suppose to do? Just shut up about it?

Many words mean the same thing, they are known as synonyms.  Imho, words and terms are taken too seriously, but obviously others don't feel the same way. "A horse by any other name is still a horse".

Speaking of "faggot" why is is that more offensive than "Gay" ? It means the same thing except gay is a"happy word" it just sounds better. Why is "Whore" taken to be more offensive than "Prostitute" or even "Provider"? They mean exactly the same thing, except one sounds better?

"Words matter. A lot." Words matter a lot...to you, not to me. I could be called a Hillbilly, a Redneck, Potato Farmer, etc. and I am not offended. Now if you call me Ignorant White Trash, now I would find that offensive because Trash and Ignorant are derogatory terms.

How is "Many Moons" or "How" an offensive term? I one is so easily offended by such innoculous terms, I suggest they never leave their house or venture out in public, because obviously they will be offended by someone.

There is also a benign word "Snowflake" that is now used in an offensive way...so, what we have are say 3 types of people, those who are too sensitive, those who are not sensitive enough, and those in the middle.

One of my sons is overly sensitive, and I don't do well with he or others who I see as "over-sensitive". I don't feel that I am insensitive, just realistic and I try to see the big picture and what is really important. YMMV cool.gif

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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 5:45 pm 
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Chief Joseph wrote:
Speaking of "faggot" why is is that more offensive than "Gay" ? It means the same thing except gay is a"happy word" it just sounds better. Why is "Whore" taken to be more offensive than "Prostitute" or even "Provider"? They mean exactly the same thing, except one sounds better?

The former terms are derogatory, and the latter are not. I think you've answered your own question here:

Chief Joseph wrote:
I could be called a Hillbilly, a Redneck, Potato Farmer, etc. and I am not offended. Now if you call me Ignorant White Trash, now I would find that offensive because Trash and Ignorant are derogatory terms.

Not everyone considers trash to be a derogatory term - e.g., hiker trash smile.gif

It comes down to the intent of the speaker.
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Chief Joseph
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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 5:52 pm 
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fourteen410 wrote:
Not everyone considers trash to be a derogatory term - e.g., hiker trash smile.gif

My point exactly!

Besides, who decides what is derogatory and what is not? I think it's a personal choice to be offended by a simple term...or not. To become extremely angry or just somewhat annoyed.

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