Forum Index > Full Moon Saloon > Out of control Pitbull, Mt Si. (Saturday Jan 12)
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PostThu Jan 17, 2019 2:09 pm 
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Guidelines for posting in a dog thread  angel.gif

You shall make no more than 1 post in a dog thread unless you have posted or replied to a trip report (or photo) since your last visit.  Thanking someone for their contribution goes a long way to building and fostering a sense of community!


Wiki summmary last edited by Tom on Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:01 pm (this post can be edited by any member)
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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 5:41 pm 
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Moved this one to the saloon.  Who knows, maybe this thread could eventually become the alter ego to thread length.
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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 6:03 pm 
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Chief Joseph wrote:
Besides, who decides what is derogatory and what is not?

Good question. I kind of think of it like first  names. Most people have some say in what they're called.  I know someone with the given name of "Benjamin" who was known as Benji back in high  school. Now he prefers Ben (or if you  must, Benjamin). I go  with his preference - it's easy and it just seems like the right thing to do.  He won't get angry if someone calls him Benji, but it does  make him at least a little  less comfortable - more  like a child I think. This is a fairly benign and trivial  example yet I best most folks here would  do the same as me in this case. I think most of the language stuff being discussed in the thread drift here is a bit higher stakes  for  the people who have  made requests for certain labels or phrases not to  be used. But maybe you'd call him Benji, perhaps even enjoying the almost imperceptible squirming it causes. Or  maybe not.
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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 9:41 pm 
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Anne Elk wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
† You are all looking at this through your lens of privilege.

That's the current favorite way to be dismissive of anyone and anything, and shuts down dialogue.† There isn't a person alive who isn't looking at things through the lens of their own upbringing. Some of the lenses are more distorted than others; regardless of their history and position in the social pecking order.

It also shuts down conversation to accuse people of throwing out the victim card or telling them to lighten up.

Once I witnessed a upper middle class white women tell someone that was grieving the loss of their only close relative, struggling with mental illness and facing potential homelessness that EVERYONE had challenges.  She was super stressed out because her landscaping project she hired someone to do for her was going over budget, so she understood.  She had problems, too.

Yes.  Everyone does.  Some people fear for their safety and ability to feed and shelter themselves almost never and some nearly every second....
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PostFri Jan 25, 2019 9:51 pm 
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Chief Joseph wrote:
Besides, who decides what is derogatory and what is not? I think it's a personal choice to be offended by a simple term...or not. To become extremely angry or just somewhat annoyed.

It seems like most of the time the person who is being asked to consider their language gets the most offended...

"Oh hey!  I heard you got married!  How's the new Squaw?"

"Hey man, that word is offensive to my culture.  Could  you not say it?"

Do you reply with...

"Wth!  Lighten up snowflake! God!  People are so sensitive these days!"

Or..

"Oh.  I'm sorry.  I didnt know that.  Can you explain why?"

I guess it depends how you want the people around you to feel and how much you value the persons friendship.
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Anne Elk
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PostSat Jan 26, 2019 1:34 am 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
It also shuts down conversation to accuse people of throwing out the victim card

Sure.  Except sometimes that is what's going on, and people need to be held responsible for their own "stuff".   I have a relative with that problem, and have seen it in the odd co-worker or two over the years.

But let's look back at what started this diversion to begin with.  Chico made a post about dogs and used a seemingly innocuous phrase that CambaJamba considers an insulting, culturally loaded pejorative. Why didn't C-J  just PM Chico and have a dialog about it off thread and straighten things out, just as you suggested:  ""Hey man, that <phrase> is offensive to my culture.  Could  you not say it?"   Instead, seemingly apropos of nothing, CJ goes off on Chico publicly, no explanation, and the community does a collective "HUH"?  Kinda like maybe CJ wanted to stir up some controversy so we could all be collectively shamed/blamed:

Quote:
I'm just a person trying to live my life without being reminded constantly that I'm perceived as a second class citizen by a large portion of our population - even if they themselves don't realize they see it that way...In so many ways I don't have time to educate on, it reminds me that what could have been my proud heritage is instead a source of constant misunderstanding and ridicule...This forum tolerates hate speech and consists of loud voices that condone it explicitly.

..."even if they themselves don't realize they see it that way."  With all due respect, that's pure projection.  Misunderstanding, even ignorance, has no malice behind it.  It doesn't serve CJ's wish nor further collective understanding to lash out at the same volume no matter the offense, especially if unintentional.  I don't believe our moderators tolerate hate speech, and from what I've seen since joining this forum, "loud voices that condone it" are shut off.

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"There are yahoos out there.  Itís why we canít have nice things."  - Tom Mahood
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PostSat Jan 26, 2019 4:08 am 
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Anne Elk wrote:
Quote:
I'm just a person trying to live my life without being reminded constantly that I'm perceived as a second class citizen by a large portion of our population - even if they themselves don't realize they see it that way...In so many ways I don't have time to educate on, it reminds me that what could have been my proud heritage is instead a source of constant misunderstanding and ridicule...This forum tolerates hate speech and consists of loud voices that condone it explicitly.

..."even if they themselves don't realize they see it that way."† With all due respect, that's pure projection.† Misunderstanding, even ignorance, has no malice behind it.† It doesn't serve CJ's wish nor further collective understanding to lash out at the same volume no matter the offense, especially if unintentional.† I don't believe our moderators tolerate hate speech, and from what I've seen since joining this forum, "loud voices that condone it" are shut off

If you have never been marginalized, if you have never experienced "micro aggressions" (and I hate that word, but there isnt a better one) you may not understand but it is devastating to constantly be the punch line of a joke.

Cambajamba could have done better explaining their feelings on many moons but he they were met with defensiveness pretty quick, too.

cambajamba wrote:
Stop saying "many moons," it isn't cute and I don't have patience for it anymore.

MtnGoat wrote:
Grow some.


brewermd wrote:
I am confused by your statement and can't tell if you are trying to be funny.  I have been following this thread and went back through the four pages and there was one...ONE.."many many moons".  Is this an ongoing problem I am unaware of?

MtnGoat wrote:
Idiom police out to enforce their religion's blasphemy code. And dead serious about it.

cambajamba wrote:
Yes, I am policing your offensive remarks. Using terms you think are innocuous but are actually offensive is pretty natural and human. I kept saying "handicapped parking" until someone with a brain corrected me. We can all change for the better, and not everyone telling you to change is a personal attack or an attack on your politics. It's not a religion to want to be accommodating and understanding of other people and their lives. The fact that you can't see that, that you literally don't believe you should have to consider your impacts on others is troubling. The fact that that attitude seems to be pervasive these days is even worse. Do you realize that what you are saying is "I am not responsible for anything I cause." Is that lack of responsibility something you're striving for? Working on? Is that growth to you?

I'll grow patience if you can grow some empathy.

Also don't forget who's land you're on.
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Anne Elk
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PostSat Jan 26, 2019 7:26 am 
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"...it is devastating to constantly be the punch line of a joke. "

Sorry that you're not following my point.  huh.gif  Chico was not intending that toward C-J at all.  If C-J wants to knee-jerk at the same intensity when nothing of the sort was intended, it does nothing to undo the past, does nothing to advance understandings, and just grows his/her ulcer.  I know some First Nations people who don't seem to have that problem (ie, seeing a slur around every corner and a racist behind every funny look from a non-native.)  I refer you back to neek's post (pg 7, I believe). 

More to the point: In their own words: 12 Native Americans talk ...; so: extremely divergent native views re what's offensive.

And I'm not going to debate with you any more.   I like the way Shaw put it, "Don't mud wrestle with pigs.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it."  And just to clarify, I'm not calling you names.  I'm done with this muddy thread.

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PostSat Jan 26, 2019 8:09 am 
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Anne Elk wrote:
"...it is devastating to constantly be the punch line of a joke. "

Sorry that you're not following my point.  huh.gif  Chico was not intending that toward C-J at all.  If C-J wants to knee-jerk at the same intensity when nothing of the sort was intended, it does nothing to undo the past, does nothing to advance understandings, and just grows his/her ulcer.  I know some First Nations people who don't seem to have that problem (ie, seeing a slur around every corner and a racist behind every funny look from a non-native.)  I refer you back to neek's post (pg 7, I believe). 

And I'm not going to debate with you any more.   I like the way Shaw put it, "Don't mud wrestle with pigs.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it."  And just to clarify, I'm not calling you names.  I'm done with this muddy thread.

Cambajamba felt bad due to the use of "many moons" and for an understandable reason, regardless of intent.

If I hit someone with my car it doesnt matter if I meant to or not.  I still hit them.

You either care, apologize and be more careful in the future, or you don't.

What you choose to do speaks a lot about "you".
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PostSat Jan 26, 2019 8:14 am 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
Tell this to ...

I appreciate this point.  You don't tell the victim of abuse or cultural marginalization to shut up and go in a corner and meditate.  Nor do you necessarily encourage someone deeply disturbed, depressed, or suicidal to peer deeply inside their own mind.  But to someone who runs away when the resident intellectual bully says "grow some", I think the advice might apply.  (Not to ignore the history of discourse that preceded this thread--it's not like this is the first time there was conflict.)

Pahoehoe wrote:
You are all looking at this through your lens of privilege

It is hard for anyone living in the US to not look through this lens, as I've pointed out before.  Even the homeless here have it much better than certain populations around the world.  People should be aware of their privilege, for sure, but not necessary shamed for it.
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PostSat Jan 26, 2019 8:23 am 
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I never said someone should be ashamed on their privilege.  I said they were seeing the world through it.
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Backpacker Joe
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PostSat Jan 26, 2019 2:37 pm 
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This isnt rocket science!  If youre going to take a dog out and be around people control your dog!  Pretty simple to me.

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"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."

ó Abraham Lincoln
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PostSat Jan 26, 2019 7:35 pm 
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Backpacker Joe wrote:
This isnt rocket science!  If youre going to take a dog out and be around people control your dog!  Pretty simple to me.

Yes, please!

Today I was headed up toward West Tiger 2.   Suddenly I realized there was a dog right behind me. I hadn't heard a thing and it rattled me. If I'd been on steeper terrain I could have easily fallen.  When the owner showed up I asked him to please not let his dog run up behind people like that. He blew me off. 

Out of 15- 20 dogs, maybe 3 were leashed.   

What is it with people that think it's ok to let your dog run up to strangers? Especially from behind?  And then they act like you don't have a right to complain.   Really!

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PostTue Jan 29, 2019 12:22 pm 
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I typically do not post to dog threads since this subject is close to me and tends to get my ire up. Been a dog owner the majority of my life.  They are great companions/friends/family members and I love many of the pooches on the trail.  But...

/r

As someone who has had their back turned into hamburger thanks to an idiotic irresponsible a-hole's uncontrolled pit bull I can say this - control your dog.  Period. Or someone else will.

If you truly love your pet- and actually care about other folks besides yourself, then think long and hard about your decision to let them go free range.

Again I love meeting peoples pooches on the trail- in a controlled situation. I even bring treats for them. But I will not tolerate being mauled. 

/r_off
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PostTue Jan 29, 2019 1:57 pm 
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Badger wrote:
As someone who has had their back turned into hamburger thanks to an idiotic irresponsible a-hole's uncontrolled pit bull I can say this - control your dog.† Period. Or someone else will.

Careful, someone earlier in the thread said that they were offended by the term "Pit Bull" and that we should refer to them as some long winded term like, "Staffordshire Terrier"....but that was a few moons ago, I think before the Super-Blood-Wolf-Moon.

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Doppelganger
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PostWed Jan 30, 2019 7:43 am 
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Badger wrote:
If you truly love your pet- and actually care about other folks besides yourself, then think long and hard about your decision to let them go free range.†

I rarely take my dogs out hiking, but keep them leashed primarily out of concern for the safety of the dogs.  I can't predict what they will do in every situation, and I can't keep an eye on them 100% of the time we're out there. So other methods of control must be implemented to ensure the dogs don't go rooting in something nasty or introduce themselves to someone (or something) without asking.

Edit: Worst case scenario would be coming home with a leash but no dog. Why take the chance? Just what works for me though, everyone has different ways of doing things.
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