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Cyclopath
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PostThu Jan 23, 2020 12:33 pm 
^ If they're in the process of building new parking, it makes sense to address how that new parking is going to impact the environment.  Whatever type of parking structure they go with, it won't make a difference to how cars leak oil in transit.  Worry about the things you have control over.

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Kim Brown
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PostThu Jan 23, 2020 1:03 pm 
Cyclopath wrote:
^ If they're in the process of building new parking, it makes sense to address how that new parking is going to impact the environment.  Whatever type of parking structure they go with, it won't make a difference to how cars leak oil in transit.  Worry about the things you have control over.

Yup. Low hanging fruit.

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joker
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PostThu Jan 23, 2020 1:25 pm 
Well it does depend on both the degree of actual impact as well  as the cost to mitigate it... It's not clear that the fruit is terribly low hanging (i.e. cost of building a  garage  or  otherwise capturing and filtering any  runoff from the lots) or plentiful

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Pahoehoe
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PostThu Jan 23, 2020 2:26 pm 
People have to be forced to change.

Most like the comfort and convenience of driving their own car places.

That's becoming an issue because if environmental concerns and space to park.  Lots of places, not just ski areas.

We can widen roads for more lanes and build more parking or we could say this sucks.  Let's charge more for parking and provide better public transportation options and hopefully tip the scales the other direction... ie, 20 bucks and a nightmare drive versus free in a bus...

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Kim Brown
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PostThu Jan 23, 2020 2:27 pm 
No, cost of building a garage isn't considered in "low hanging fruit," if you're building a garage anyway. Building a garage is even more lower hanging than public transportation because it doesn't ask anything of anyone.

As Randy pointed out environment stuff is already in place for a design, so there's nothing special that needs to be done. It's already there. Depending on the jurisdiction and the owner of the structure, it could be rigid, or not (both the garage and the environment mechanisms). So if you just build a garage, by virtue of the environmental regs for that structure in that location, and  with no more consideration, you're already doing something that addresses water pollution.

The bigger issue Randy is talking about - dealing with roads first, instead of a garage, is too unwieldy, and there's not a full, catch-all wonder-design for roads and vehicles. What he's talking about is (or was, last I read) the largest polluter of Puget Sound (roads, brake dust, etc) - not considering the five SuperFund sites on the Duwamish. But there's nothing particularily effective  in place to deal with it. That's high hanging fruit. Especially if cost in included in the definition of the term "low hanging fruit."

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Schroder
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PostThu Jan 23, 2020 4:18 pm 
What I've read in the past and seems the greatest environmental concern in that area is the runoff of deicing salts to Tunnel Creek from the highway.

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joker
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PostThu Jan 23, 2020 4:19 pm 
Well yeah if you're building them then they'll become built and they'll  be there.  Of course. I for one am not holding my breath waiting for  that but somebody please wake me up  when they do build one at either  of these resorts. smile.gif But in any case I don't think "pollution from garage runoff" is likely to be anywhere in the top ten list of impediments to these being  built. Nor do I expect their environmental benefit with respect to how their runoff is handled versus runoff from dirt lots being  likely to be what creates a justification that incents their being built...

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Randito
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PostThu Jan 23, 2020 4:53 pm 
Cyclopath wrote:
Worry about the things you have control over.

Addressing the 0.01% of the problem represented by oil drips in the parking lot is a fantastic example of "Greenwashing"  -- doing something ineffective and perhaps counter productive because "we have to do something"

If a full environmental analysis was done -- I'm skeptical that a parking garage would have lesser environmental impact than the current gravel lots.

After all a parking garage uses a lot of concrete and steel -- the production of which generates substantial CO2 emissions and other pollution.

The other big issue with a parking garage at Steven's pass is the very low utilization rate -- the number of days per year where parking overflows at Steven's is actually very small -- so it it quite wasteful to build such a structure that 90+% of the time will be basically empty.

Environmentally it would make a lot more sense to build a big park and ride lot (or garage) in Monroe that could be used M-F for Puget Sound City commuters and S-S for skiers.

Run shuttle buses to the resort @ cost and charge $20 for parking for cars, but free for carpools of four or more.

That sort of scheme would lower the environmental impact of the luxury of lift skiing.

But don't hold your breath -- the business model for the ski area is oriented toward requiring as little "thinking ahead" as possible for lift ticket buying and beer drinking skiers.

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Bedivere
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PostThu Jan 23, 2020 4:57 pm 
RandyHiker wrote:
But don't hold your breath -- the business model for the ski area is oriented toward requiring as little "thinking ahead" as possible for lift ticket buying and beer drinking skiers.

That model may change at Stevens as it has at Crystal due to increasing use beyond their capacity.  Crystal now requires advance purchase of tickets online for weekends, and only a certain amount of tickets are available. They implemented this policy after major traffic jams occurred in recent weeks due to completely full parking lots.

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Randito
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PostThu Jan 23, 2020 5:34 pm 
Bedivere wrote:
They implemented this policy after major traffic jams occurred in recent weeks due to completely full parking lots.

Yes -- and IME skiing at Crystal on full parking lot days is of marginal value in terms of vertical skied for dollar spent.    The last time I bought a ticket at Crystal after parking on Lot F -- I got all of 5 runs and spent the bulk of the day standing in Disneyland type queues.

So it's not just a question of parking lot capacity and using shuttle buses to deliver more skiers to the base of the mountain -- the lift system has to provide sufficient capacity to service the skiers.    Standing in a queue for 30+ minutes per chair lift ride is why I started ski touring back in 1971 when my 13 yo self realized I could hike to the top of the lift more quickly than waiting in the lift line.

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joker
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PostThu Jan 23, 2020 6:05 pm 
Vail and Alterra love selling passes to people who are happy with five runs but who buy food and maybe lodging

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Randito
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PostThu Jan 23, 2020 6:36 pm 
joker wrote:
Vail and Alterra love selling passes to people who are happy with five runs but who buy food and maybe lodging

Free parking with a two drink minimum will be the new model.

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Cyclopath
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PostThu Jan 23, 2020 6:48 pm 
RandyHiker wrote:
Yes -- and IME skiing at Crystal on full parking lot days is of marginal value in terms of vertical skied for dollar spent.    The last time I bought a ticket at Crystal after parking on Lot F -- I got all of 5 runs and spent the bulk of the day standing in Disneyland type queues.

So it's not just a question of parking lot capacity and using shuttle buses to deliver more skiers to the base of the mountain -- the lift system has to provide sufficient capacity to service the skiers.    Standing in a queue for 30+ minutes per chair lift ride is why I started ski touring back in 1971 when my 13 yo self realized I could hike to the top of the lift more quickly than waiting in the lift line.

It sounds like skiing has the same problem as hiking:  over-crowding due to Instagram and maps.

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Randito
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PostThu Jan 23, 2020 11:18 pm 
Cyclopath wrote:
It sounds like skiing has the same problem as hiking:  over-crowding due to Instagram and maps.

This problem predates Instagram by a long measure --
Quote:
Standing in a queue for 30+ minutes per chair lift ride is why I started ski touring back in 1971

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BigBrunyon
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PostFri Jan 24, 2020 9:58 am 
RandyHiker wrote:
Cyclopath wrote:
It sounds like skiing has the same problem as hiking:  over-crowding due to Instagram and maps.

This problem predates Instagram by a long measure --
Quote:
Standing in a queue for 30+ minutes per chair lift ride is why I started ski touring back in 1971


Then its probably the maps' fault. It usually is. Need to get certain locales removed from the maps.

I like this whole more-booze-ya-drink-the-cheaper-it-is-to-park deal.

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