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Anne Elk
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PostThu May 09, 2019 6:44 pm 
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I purposely left out mention of the 2 successful lawsuits, GB, since there doesn't seem to be any analysis or details of the trials online re what convinced the jury.

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RandyHiker
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PostThu May 09, 2019 6:53 pm 
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Remember a few years ago when switching to BPA free water bottles was a major trend?

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/02/23/588356360/plastic-additive-bpa-not-much-of-a-threat-government-study-finds
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Anne Elk
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PostThu May 09, 2019 7:37 pm 
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Apparently glyphosate and Roundup aren't identical:

Quote:
Roundup is not just glyphosate. Itís a cocktail of different chemicals, and thereís mounting evidence that this cocktail could be a dangerous one:

Multiple studies have found herbicides like Roundup were more likely to cause cell-cycle dysregulation, a hallmark of cancer, than glyphosate alone. A 2009 study showed that some formulations of Roundup were more toxic to human umbilical, embryonic and placental cells than glyphosate by itself. Another study found that one of the inert ingredients in Roundup was up to 2,000 times more toxic to cells than glyphosate.

https://montpirg.org/issues/mtp/ban-roundup?page=33

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neek
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PostThu May 09, 2019 7:54 pm 
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Don't worry.  Eventually the weeds will win, and we'll switch to something even more toxic.

Or maybe weed zapping AI robots will make it a moot point and we'll move on to more pressing existential risks.  Like artificially intelligent robots.
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Anne Elk
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PostThu May 09, 2019 8:46 pm 
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Good curve ball, neek.  stun.gif  It's amazing some of the stuff folks around here dredge up.   Wonder what the suggested retail price will be. smile.gif

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PostSat May 11, 2019 8:15 am 
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Anne Elk wrote:
Apparently glyphosate and Roundup aren't identica

Some formulations of Round-up have other herbicides, like the formulation for "tough brush."  Basic Round-up has glyphosate and a surfactant.  The surfactant allows more of the glyphosate to be absorbed by the leaf.  The surfactant is bad for aquatic fauna if it gets in the water.

Glyphosate has a legitimate purpose, and that is killing invasive weeds that cannot be killed any other way.  It is a relatively short list of weeds.  It should never have been involved in routine spraying of agricultural fields.   shakehead.gif

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Even my best friends, they don't know, that my job is turning lead into gold. When you hear that engine drone, I'm on the road again, and I'm searching for the philosopher's stone - Van Morrison
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Anne Elk
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PostSat May 11, 2019 1:31 pm 
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I suspect that farmers (hopefully) are more judicious and trained in application methods.  Municipal park employees, probably not so much.  Using it as an alternative to trimming grass around play areas and fences in parks is nuts.

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mb
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PostSat May 11, 2019 4:15 pm 
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Farmers treat entire fields with Roundup. THat's what "Roundup Ready" plants (typically soy) are all about. And apparently even intentionally killing certain crops (e.g. wheat) at the right time makes them easier to harvest.
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Anne Elk
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PostSat May 11, 2019 5:16 pm 
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mb wrote:
...apparently even intentionally killing certain crops (e.g. wheat) at the right time makes them easier to harvest.

I've heard this claim before, and also seen it vigorously denied by farmers.  When you think about what Roundup does (biologically) to plants, and then imagine what they're doing to "Roundup ready" seeds in order for them to be able to resist it, it's hard to believe that it's not having some effect on humans, and nutrition in general.  Just like the quality of meat (I don't mean taste, I mean actual nutrition) isn't the same in factory-raised beef vs grass-fed in natural environments.

Yeah, we've made food more "available", but like everything else we tinker with, there are unforeseen consequences that we can't even guess about.  Who knew about hormone disruptors 40 years ago?  And there's so much info and dis-info out there, you go nuts trying to sort it out.  "Better living thru chemistry" they used to say.  Maybe, sorta.

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Parked Out
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PostSat May 11, 2019 7:17 pm 
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Best piece I've come across on glyphosate - good explanations of both acute & chronic toxicity.

http://fafdl.org/blog/2017/04/13/glyphosate-vs-caffeine-acute-and-chronic-toxicity-assessments-explained/

~75,000 new cases of non-Hodgkin's lymphoma in the US every year... I don't think science can confidently attribute any of them to something as specific as exposure to a particular chemical, especially one as relatively benign as glyphosate.

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Anne Elk
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PostSat May 11, 2019 10:13 pm 
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Thanks for posting the link to that article, Parked Out.  It puts the toxicity issue into perspective. Still, who knows if there are chronic effects no one's made a connection to yet.
I've read stuff that points out glyphosate is now used in place of chemicals that are much more toxic, so it's an improvement, although as discovered with antibiotics and superbugs, glyphosate is helping produce "super-weeds".

You have to wonder about the huge increases in certain diseases and conditions since WW2: cancers, auto-immune disorders, allergies and food sensitivities. Main thing that's changed on the anthropogenic scene since then is the proliferation of chemicals.  A close relative died 15 years ago of the same kind of brain cancer that killed John McCain.  When my relative was diagnosed, I began researching the disease and was stunned to discover they have no idea what causes it - genetically or via environmental exposure.

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Parked Out
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PostSun May 12, 2019 9:26 am 
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Anne Elk wrote:
You have to wonder about the huge increases in certain diseases and conditions since WW2: cancers, auto-immune disorders, allergies and food sensitivities. Main thing that's changed on the anthropogenic scene since then is the proliferation of chemicals.† A close relative died 15 years ago of the same kind of brain cancer that killed John McCain.† When my relative was diagnosed, I began researching the disease and was stunned to discover they have no idea what causes it - genetically or via environmental exposure.

Yeah, in some ways biological science seems amazingly advanced, and then in other ways it seems like we're still more or less in the leeches-and-bloodletting phase.  It would be interesting to see a list of all the things that have changed in our biological environment over the past 50-100 years that have potentially impacted our health & longevity.  Overall the changes have been overwhelmingly positive, or that's my impression anyway.  E.g.:
https://twitter.com/countcarbon/status/1126055688180989952

Sometimes I wish I had the faith in doctors that my elderly parents have, but it's not easy when you're aware of the contention around so many basic health and nutrition questions - should I worry about my cholesterol...eat/avoid eggs & red meat...eat/avoid refined carbs...take statins...take bp medication...avoid salt...avoid the sun...avoid low-level radiation...  I don't have a good sense of how much progress we've made on prevention & treatment of cancer beyond identifying some of the more obvious carcinogenic substances and behaviors, but it seems like we still have a long way to go.

On the glyphosate question, interesting that IARC has classified it as a 2A carcinogen, a category which also contains the following (from Wikipedia):

Mixtures
Bitumens, occasional exposure to oxidized bitumens and their emissions during roofing
Creosotes (from coal tars)
High-temperature frying, emissions from
Household combustion of biomass fuel (primarily wood), indoor emissions from
Non-arsenical insecticides (occupational exposures in spraying and application of)
Red meat
Very hot beverages (more than 65℃)

Exposure circumstances
Art glass, glass containers and pressed ware (manufacture of)
Carbon electrode manufacture
Cobalt metal with tungsten carbide
Hairdresser or barber (occupational exposure as a)
Petroleum refining (occupational exposures in)
Shift work that involves circadian disruption


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Anne Elk
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PostSun May 12, 2019 6:18 pm 
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Parked Out wrote:
Sometimes I wish I had the faith in doctors that my elderly parents have, but it's not easy when you're aware of the contention around so many basic health and nutrition questions

Most MDs have very little training in nutrition, and given the fact that the old standard "food pyramid" touted by our gov't 50+ years ago was influenced by Big Ag, it's no surprise that today's recommendations look nothing like it. The 2A carcinogen list is pretty interesting;  they all seem to be "chronic exposure" carcinogens.

Oncology medicine is getting a lot more sophisticated in their use of their chemotherapy arsenal.  Research trials at Fred Hutch led to the realization that certain drugs can be given at lower doses for longer times with the same level of effectiveness, and improved tolerance (eg. less nausea, etc).  There are also some cool programs (like Adjvant Online) which use a humongous database of client outcomes and an algorithm which will yield various statistical probabilities of length of remission based on select variables such as cancer type & stage, metastasis at diagnosis, age, and then whichever treatment modality combos are chosen.  It's very helpful in making a decision; MDs will still make a recommendation, but now there's data to back it up, not just experience and opinion of your MD.

No doubt genes play a huge part - how else to explain, for example, someone who makes it into their 90's despite having smoked like a chimney since their young years?

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PostMon May 13, 2019 7:16 am 
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Parked Out wrote:
Best piece I've come across on glyphosate - good explanations of both acute & chronic toxicity.http://fafdl.org/blog/2017/04/13/glyphosate-vs-caffeine-acute-and-chronic-toxicity-assessments-explained/

That is an excellent piece!  I would like to hand it to folks before I even discuss toxicity with them (I had to study toxicology for my job).

The other thing folks should know about glyphosate is how it works.  It disrupts an enzyme-regulated biological process that only exists in plants.  This is why it is so toxic to plants but keeps getting good safety ratings for humans.

The flip side is that it breaks down very slowly in soil.

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Even my best friends, they don't know, that my job is turning lead into gold. When you hear that engine drone, I'm on the road again, and I'm searching for the philosopher's stone - Van Morrison
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Brian R
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PostThu May 16, 2019 9:53 pm 
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Anne Elk wrote:
So many of these problems would almost solve themselves if humans would self-regulate reproduction ... to about 15th century levels.

Forget glyphosphate.  If you're a real misanthrope you'll go after nitrogen fertilizer. The world population pre Fritz Haber was just under 2 billion.

Quote:
gb

The pathology of NHL is far more complicated than this. In fact, there are now close to 35 identified "brands" of NHL each with its own distinct code/gene relocation/protein expression issue. One thing is almost certain though--it IS environmental. There are no statistics that point to an inherited predisposition. Is it glyphosphate? Who knows. Maybe this and probably a lot more. Certainly a jury of laypeople don't understand.

As a survivor of a Stage III, grade 3a B-cell version of this cancer, I can tell you my exposure to glyphosphate was minimal to zero. Still, when I say this, what I really mean is as far as I know. It's a pretty prolific compound. And this is reason enough for additional scientific scrutiny.
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