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MtnGoat
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PostWed May 15, 2019 10:04 am 
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The nature of human variation insures said examples will always exist.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Anne Elk
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PostWed May 15, 2019 10:26 am 
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Doppelganger wrote:
From a story about Seattle's list of most prolific repeat offenders. This seems like the kind of list Jordan would have landed on - in fact, one of the Seattle guys Travis Berge profiled in recent weeks looks strikingly similar to Jordan. Current tally of 34 convictions and 46 jail bookings.

These are examples of why we used to have something called "involuntary commitment" or special facilities for the criminally insane.  These people cannot be allowed out into the streets.  The drug overlay with mental illness just complicates things even more.

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"There are yahoos out there.  Itís why we canít have nice things."  - Tom Mahood
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Doppelganger
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PostWed May 15, 2019 10:33 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
The nature of human variation insures said examples will always exist.

While this is true, it leans towards acceptance for me. Examples may always exist, but we should prevent them from becoming new standards. I have no idea how this would best be accomplished however.
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MtnGoat
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PostWed May 15, 2019 10:36 am 
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From my perspective I see them as examples of the outliers with respect to the statistical spread of human behaviors, rather than new standards. There's nothing new about them, for one thing.

Acceptance that we cannot change human nature is the first step to grappling with that reality. Non acceptance of it won't eliminate these folks either, they will always exist and regardless of how many hoops we jump to help them, they will still exist, and the nature of their choices and mindsets will lead them to precisely the places they gravitate now for the same reasons. Places they're hard to find, hard to help..this is why they are there.

Try to help, sure. Expect it to change things, no. The best that can be done is minimizing the harm without expecting a solution.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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DigitalJanitor
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PostWed May 15, 2019 10:55 am 
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JMO: we can expect this problem, along with many other interlocking rings of problems, to get worse before they get better.

And having spent a little time sitting down and listening to homeless people: they were very often 'us' once. I'm convinced that's why people treat them so badly. If they're 'us' instead of 'other', then it can happen to 'us' too, and that's super duper scary. Better for our ego to deny it and keep our superiority intact.

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~Mom jeans on wheels
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Doppelganger
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PostWed May 15, 2019 2:20 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
From my perspective I see them as examples of the outliers with respect to the statistical spread of human behaviors, rather than new standards. There's nothing new about them, for one thing.

Considering the building momentum of homelessness through the 80's and 90's, it seems like there are some extra ingredients now in the recipe for American homelessness as we know it today: addiction, financial and economical stressors, mental health. It seems to me that there are more factors today which contribute to and exacerbate the homeless situation, while I agree that expectation of change or a simple solution is unrealistic, there is surely a certain level of reversal or prevention that can be attained?

As DJ said, confrontation of these issues is uncomfortable and requires long looks at things we would rather not - our vulnerabilities, our shortcomings, the faults and failures of ourselves and neighbors. Went to Victoria when I was 12 or 13, one afternoon we were walking back from Miniature World when my dad found some guy in a blanket on the waterfront right in front of the parliament building. They started talking and figured out that they had spent time in the same places during the 60's and 70's and ended up spending all night talking. All. Night. I am ashamed to say that I had no idea of the conversation's significance on any level and was bored out of my mind all night, staring off into the bay. Sure would like to have that night back to slap myself awake.

DJ does bring up an interesting point. How has this 'caste' come to be so separate? Are we so afraid or uncomfortable to look such things in the eye?
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Vertec
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PostWed May 15, 2019 11:29 pm 
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Check these out:


and this (five months ahead of local coverage):


The first video listed above is kinda weak compared to the second one.  For example I'll post a quiz: How many individual doses can be taken from three grams of heroin?  This question is kinda important because possession is not prosecuted in Seattle/King County for less than three grams.  Think about that after you find the answer.

The answer is in one of the above videos, but not the other.  So which one can be considered fake news?

I had an encounter on Pilchuck that very well could have ended like the AP trail incident.  Yes the person was using.  Don't think it "can't happen here".  Pontification will not solve these problems.

But speaking of pontification, were the AP hikers carrying Bear Spray?

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Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
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Vertec
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PostWed May 15, 2019 11:55 pm 
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As stated in so many other threads here, I will continue to keep my skunk on patrol. Proven to work more often than....  Well let's just say my skunk carries:
Ear Plugs

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Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
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Sky Hiker
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PostThu May 16, 2019 5:38 am 
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Now that's just plain funny there
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Doppelganger
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PostThu May 16, 2019 8:47 am 
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Vertec wrote:
I will continue to keep my skunk on patrol. Proven to work more often than....† Well let's just say my skunk carries:

Vertec posted in jest, but making areas unsavory for loitering is a strategy that's used in urban areas sometimes. Perhaps this can be modified or expanded to trailhead security in some way, I'm pretty sure nobody here minds a whiff of skunk since we all know it means one of the little guys is running around nearby. Leave an open jug in your trunk, your car will probably get skipped. Maybe a few fake plastic poops and puke piles on the dashboard and seats for good measure.

Vertec wrote:
I had an encounter on Pilchuck that very well could have ended like the AP trail incident.  Yes the person was using.  Don't think it "can't happen here".  Pontification will not solve these problems.

Would you be comfortable sharing the story of this encounter? I think many of us here think of Pinnacle Lake when they hear of crime in that area. We had a couple of other victims (at a campsite or trailhead if I recall correctly?) further south in recent years but I'm not able to find the related stories this morning. While the Pinnacle Lake murders remain unsolved, I think it was determined that the perpetrators of the other incident were convicted criminals and one of the two perpretrators was recently released from prison.
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natural_log
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PostThu May 16, 2019 12:27 pm 
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More on the victim and what happened:

Army veteran killed on AT

A woman played dead to save herself from an attacker on the AT

Condolences to all that had to experience this tragedy.
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RandyHiker
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PostThu May 16, 2019 8:32 pm 
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Another update with a few more details.

https://thetrek.co/appalachian-trail/slain-hiker-identified-details-emerge-appalachian-trail-attack/

Quote:
On the evening of May 10th, the group of hikers set up camp further along the trail in Wyeth County, where Jordan appeared around 1am. He addressed the hikers through their tents, threatening to pour gasoline on their tents and set them on fire. As the four hikers decided to pack and leave the site, Jordan approached them, wielding a knife.

Two hikers fled the site northbound on the trail, placing a 911 call at 2:30am. After giving chase, Jordan then returned to the site and confronted the remaining two hikers, Sanchez and an as-yet identified female hiker. After a verbal confrontation, Jordan began stabbing Sanchez, who fell to the ground. The female hiker fled the scene, pursued by Jordan who caught up to her and began stabbing her. The female hiker fell to the ground and played dead, at which point Jordan left the scene. The female hiker continued down the trail, finding help with a pair of hikers who assisted her six miles to Smyth County. They placed a 911 call at 3:12am reporting the attack.

Law enforcement arrived at the scene of the attack a little after 6am on May 11th, locating Sanchezís body as well as a large knife in close proximity. They then located Jordan near the scene.
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Vertec
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PostThu May 16, 2019 9:20 pm 
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I'll share this:

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30151096622&searchurl=tn%3Dcontact%2Bweapons%2Blethality%2Band%2Bdefense%26sortby%3D17&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title1

Good read.  Describes the stakes involved.

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Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
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Cyclopath
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PostThu May 16, 2019 9:28 pm 
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Hiking is dangerous.  Mount Si is the only safe trail.  Don't ever go anywhere else.
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Vertec
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PostThu May 16, 2019 10:09 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
Law enforcement arrived at the scene of the attack a little after 6am on May 11th, locating Sanchezís body as well as a large knife in close proximity.

I say this with every/all respect for members of Law Enforcement.  There is only so much they can do to protect life, especially in the wilderness.  Every member of Law Enforcement I know and have encountered openly acknowledge their limitations, and support our individual rights to protect ourselves.

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Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
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