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Sculpin
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PostFri May 24, 2019 2:36 pm 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
Actually, a lot of places have beautiful climbing trails built by mtn bikers that everyone can go up or down except bikes cannot go down.  This is reasonable in my mind, but the hikers and trail runners scream and cry about the idea of one or two bike only down trails... that mtn bikers also built...

No screaming and crying from me.  Overall, I have benefited greatly from the work of mountain bikers -especially in the California Bay Area where they have opened up oodles of public land - and don't mind being restricted from the vertical chutes they like to come down.

But things can get complicated.  In Derby Canyon outside Leavenworth, a very scenic ridge has become the "Xanadu" MTB trail.  It's fine.  Locals knew about it for decades.  You can still have a wonderful hike on foot.  At the bottom, a second ridge starts right next to what is now Xanadu Ridge, deep in the brush, and spokes out in a different direction.  That sekrit ridge used to require a bit of Class 3 at the bottom, but was then a spectacular bootpath on a knife edge through National Park quality scenery to panoramic views.  Mountain bikers decided this second ridge would also make a good bike trail.  They worked hard on it, I could tell.  It is now called "Three Devils Ridge" or something like that.  The ridgetop has been completely destroyed by the mountain bike trail, which has big sweeping banked turns, unnecessary swales, and spots so steep that I had to use my fingernails to climb up.  Some of the big turns are built out of piled dirt which will end up down the mountain when the first serious cloudburst occurs.  Mountain bikes come down at crazy speeds (I think they only go down).  There are a few places where if they encounter a hiker unexpectedly, somebody will be very badly hurt...they get a millisecond to pick who.  I felt OK going up, I'm pretty quick getting out the way.  But going down really sucked, I was continually swivelling my head.  I'm never going back and I regret this happened because the ridge WAS a special place for hikers.

So that is my rant, but I am still supportive of mountain bikers!

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MultiUser
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PostSun May 26, 2019 2:36 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
Yes "trails" but you evaded the question of the break down of trail work hours performed by mountain bike riders on "multi use" trails and "bike specific " trails.   It's not just terrain park like areas like Duthie Hill, but tons of other places, e.g. Many the trails on the south side of Tiger mountain are both "biker only" and  "downhill only" and feature things like rock lined banked turns.   This kind of trail work does take a huge amount of time and I think it's great that bikers are building trails for their enjoyment.   But I think including the hours spent building and maintaining such trails in a general tally of hours contributed to "multi use" trails is propaganda.

I assume then that including hours on hiker only trails is also propaganda?
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Malachai Constant
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PostSun May 26, 2019 6:41 pm 
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We have done maintenance on both MTB trails and hiker only trails. Both have their place. Some hiker trails would make good MTB trails Mailbox New comes to mind. Some MTB make good hiking like WA North ridge. Others do not mix Mailbox new and Tiger East downhills. So it goes.

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RandyHiker
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PostSun May 26, 2019 7:37 pm 
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MultiUser wrote:
I assume then that including hours on hiker only trails is also propaganda?

I'm not the one claiming that trail runners are lazy bastards or that mountain bikers do many times more trail work than other user groups.

Pahoehoe wrote:
Mountain bikers do more trail work than everyone else combined.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Also people who sometimes ride mountain bikes have access to "hiking only" trails.   A mountain bike is a piece of equipment,  not a category of human being entitled to equal protection under the law.
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coldrain108
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PostMon May 27, 2019 9:22 am 
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"Every time one steps around a puddle to keep their shoesies clean (mountain bikers tend to ride through puddles), theyíre widening the trail."

Same with hikers who have proper footwear - we walk right through puddles.

This problem I do see quite frequently,  but it's not just runners but all people who scrimp on their footwear in the mountains for the sake of their own singular "weight savings". I wear treated leather boots and walk straight through mudholes, standing water and remnant snow. I'll never create an extra track just to keep my substandard shoes dry.  This is where cutting corners so as to be able to brag about "ultralite" or other such internet based hiking nonsense becomes a resource damaging issue.  Stay on the trail even if it is wet, muddy or snow covered.  The lack of proper, water resistant, shoes is not an excuse to make extra spider trails.

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SwitchbackFisher
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PostMon May 27, 2019 9:53 am 
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coldrain108 wrote:
This problem I do see quite frequently,† but it's not just runners but all people who scrimp on their footwear in the mountains for the sake of their own singular "weight savings". I wear treated leather boots and walk straight through mudholes, standing water and remnant snow. I'll never create an extra track just to keep my substandard shoes dry.

Interested thing about this is all the people I hike with where these substandard shoes, and walk right through it to. The way I see it your feet will get wet one way or another whether it is from a Creek crossing or perspiration. I choose the shoe that dries quick, meaning a vented model paired with wool socks so I can have dry feet to start the next day.

I don't think the issue is footwear but selfishness and education. A lot of people I've talked to about this issue did not know the harm they do skirting around the mud.

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RandyHiker
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PostMon May 27, 2019 11:16 am 
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I think trails get wider in relation to the trail's popularity.   Puddles in a trail aren't a problem when the volume of hikers is low, but when a trail get popular it needs more work to drain properly.   Stomping through puddles deepens the puddles and I think it's moral superiority is marginal at best.   

I welcome the new generation of folks getting out of the city into natural environments.  Instagram hikers are preferable in my book to couch potatoes.    My observation is that the per capita impact of hikers, backpackers and trail runners today is far less than when I was a kid and we were cooking over campfires and it wasn't uncommon to find big piles of garbage at places like Melakwa Lake.
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Bedivere
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PostMon May 27, 2019 12:26 pm 
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I haven't read this thread, I'm just here to say I find the title amusing.  The idea that trail runners are lazy seems amusingly contradictory.

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Grannyhiker
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PostMon May 27, 2019 2:26 pm 
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My attitude towards mountain bikers is the same as towards trail runners--as long as they give me a chance to get safely out of their way, I'm fine.  That does not include those few bikers who trespass in wilderness areas or on the PCT, where they are not supposed to be.  In return, I'll stay off trails specifically built for mountain bikers!

I certainly wouldn't call any of either group "lazy parasites"!

I agree that the title of this thread is contradictory and doesn't apply to most of the runners (or bikers) that I have met.

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May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view.--E.Abbey
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Joseph
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PostMon May 27, 2019 5:28 pm 
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I've had a few interactions with trail runners.  On the WT  they were pretty impressive- although they didn't necessarily run up the steep parts (and there are a lot of steep parts of the WT).  The only annoying ones are the trail runners who suddenly appear behind you, huffing and puffing, yelling, "on your left!"   I could do without that.   Also, since they are usually running, or in a big hurry, they don't seem to stop to chat even for a bit.  I suppose if there was some important info they had, they'd stop and tell the hikers.  Wouldn't they?
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PostTue May 28, 2019 1:26 pm 
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Bedivere wrote:
I haven't read this thread, I'm just here to say I find the title amusing.  The idea that trail runners are lazy seems amusingly contradictory.

Self centered would have been a better description.  I'd argue that anyone who gets out on the trails isn't lazy.  Those who do little or nothing to give back (whether labor on trails, $ to orgs that do so, or other involvement in such orgs) could indeed be viewed as parasites on those who do.
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RandyHiker
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PostTue May 28, 2019 2:08 pm 
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The author of the opinion piece Marc Peruzzi is a mtb advocate.  The opinion piece doesn't provide any evidence for it's claim that trail runners perform little trail work.  It seems to me the intent is to sow discord between foot travelers.
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coldrain108
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PostTue May 28, 2019 3:16 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
Stomping through puddles

I doubt anyone over 3 years old STOMPS through puddles, but I do walk through them rather than create another path just to avoid getting my non-water resistant slippers wet.  In my leather boots, my feet stay nice and dry, all day long.

But OMG! I'm carrying 8 oz more than the next guy - oh the shame of it all.  I'll get laughed off the gear page...

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williswall
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PostTue May 28, 2019 3:37 pm 
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coldrain108 wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
Stomping through puddles

I doubt anyone over 3 years old STOMPS through puddles, but I do walk through them rather than create another path just to avoid getting my non-water resistant slippers wet.  In my leather boots, my feet stay nice and dry, all day long.

But OMG! I'm carrying 8 oz more than the next guy - oh the shame of it all.  I'll get laughed off the gear page...

Iím glad waffle stompers work for you; your disdain for trail runners comes through loud and clear. Iíll just add that all my foot woes disappeared over 30 years ago by switching to running shoes. I canít help but speculate that my comfortable, fast drying, non blister causing footwear with light tread may in fact result in less damage or erosion to trails vice the heavy deep treaded boots I wore in yesteryear. I also walk through water and have spent the better part of a day hiking on snow. The difference between us is that I donít snarl with disdain at people who choose footwear that works for them.

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PostTue May 28, 2019 9:54 pm 
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williswall wrote:
Iím glad waffle stompers work for you; your disdain for trail runners comes through loud and clear. Iíll just add that all my foot woes disappeared over 30 years ago by switching to running shoes. I canít help but speculate that my comfortable, fast drying, non blister causing footwear with light tread may in fact result in less damage or erosion to trails vice the heavy deep treaded boots I wore in yesteryear. I also walk through water and have spent the better part of a day hiking on snow. The difference between us is that I donít snarl with disdain at people who choose footwear that works for them.

That's not how I interpreted that at all.

I also giggle at folks who avoid mud and water just so that they don't get their pretty shoes damaged or dirty. It's like they don't actually believe the manufactures claims. "Waterproof and extremely durable" But, they sure look cool and everybody's got'em!

Kinda like buying a Jeep Rubicon or a Toyota 4 Runner TRD Pro and driving up a forest service road avoiding  all the mud pits and mud puddles ( and making the road wider ) for fear of damaging and getting dirty, a overpriced vehicle. Nobody cares about how much you spent on your stupid off road car ( that you're actually afraid to take off road )  or your stupid trail running shoes that you're actually afraid to take "on the trail"

It's very humorous

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