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treeswarper
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PostWed Jun 26, 2019 8:17 pm 
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Doppelganger wrote:
The forest learned to grow without getting cut down and hauled away every 10 years.

Goodness! Where is this fast growing forest located?  Is it bamboo?  I don't think we grow that around here yet. 

I suggest you go out into a clearcut.  Off the road, off the landing.  Actually look at what is on the ground.  Google will not show you the old culls left on the ground that are now nurse logs.   You have to do some work to see that. 

Dunno about everybody, but there can be logs left out for wildlife and decomposition.  Also, gnarly trees (the kind that are said to be the best for birds) are left standing, sometimes in clumps so as to withstand the wind.   If you drive east of I-5 on Hwy 12, look at the north hillside in the Glenoma area.  You'll see a young stand of trees amongst some quite large trees.  The larger trees were left for wildlife.  We thought that they'd blow down.  They didn't.  That hillside was logged in the late 1980s.  The big trees stayed up and still exist.    We are often surprised by outcomes.   

Walk through some of the old clearcuts.  You'll find the remnants of large, old cull logs that were left because it was a waste of time to yard in a cull.  Cull logs were often the butt log which had rot in it,  or a spiral grained tree.  They exist, but you have to get out and walk, off trail, through the forest.  Usually there is no Instagram worthy view.  Just a forest that was logged off, burned, and regrown.  The big logs didn't burn up during a broadcast burn because they were, well, big and it takes a lot of fuel and heat to burn those.  As I stated previously, slash burning was done so the unit could be replanted.  Try getting a seedling in the ground through a couple feet of slash, then repeat a thousand times.  The intent of burning was to burn the limbs more than the cull logs. 

Forestry is evolving, but your thinking is not.  Read some industry publications.  They'll talk about new techniques, new equipment, new ways of thinking.  One even featured a logger who had a contract with The Nature Conservancy to use his yarder and crew to put trees in a stream on their property.   I have worked with that crew, and they make it a point to be flexible and on top of the latest trends and technology.

fellandbuck
fellandbuck
This area is finished.
This area is finished.

As for Ski's statement that clearcuts make good firebreaks?  Not always.  It depends on how much slash was left on the ground.  I was on a fire above Enumclaw that was located in one of those checkerboard ownership areas.  The fire would die down when in the old growth area, but then it would get hot again when it entered a newly planted plantation.  The reason was that the landowner, Weyco, did not burn their units.  They planted through the slash, which was not old growth sized so it was possible to plant in it.  There were then acres of little black seedlings in the burned areas.  Depending on the location, such as Southwestern Oregon, brush comes back in and some of it (Manzanita) is quite flammable.  In Northern CA, the area around Happy Camp seems to burn and reburn frequently because of that. 

It's hard to make a broad statement about forestry.  There are too many variables in location, weather,  vegetation types and topography.

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Ski
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PostWed Jun 26, 2019 10:19 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
As for Ski's statement that clearcuts make good firebreaks?  Not always. It depends on how much slash was left on the ground.

(* emphasis added *)

Yes, and mine was a "broad statement".
I'd posit, however, that if they were scarified and the slash piles torched, their effectiveness (as fire breaks) would be great.
Unfortunately, as you've noted, a lot of the short-term-harvest plantation units are littered with slash either from previous cuts or previous pre-commercial thinning operations - glaringly evident up along the upper Clearwater Road and the 22 (West Boundary) Road out on the west side of the Peninsula.

treeswarper wrote:
It's hard to make a broad statement about forestry.  There are too many variables in location, weather,  vegetation types and topography.

No, actually, it's quite easily done.

It's just that most of the broad statements are not fact-based.

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Pyrites
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PostWed Jun 26, 2019 11:08 pm 
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A no muss no fuss way to keep current is to ask to be notified of new papers here:


https://www.fs.usda.gov/pnw/

Scroll down and sign up for notifications.

Best.
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treeswarper
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PostThu Jun 27, 2019 4:50 am 
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Here is an industry based online magazine.

https://forestnet.com/TimberWest.php

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Doppelganger
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PostThu Jun 27, 2019 10:03 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
Doppelganger wrote:
The forest learned to grow without getting cut down and hauled away every 10 years.

Goodness! Where is this fast growing forest located?  Is it bamboo?  I don't think we grow that around here yet. 

I didn't intend to make a reference to a fast growing forest that regenerates every ten years, instead I was pointing out that getting cut down *on an industrial scale* periodically is something forest ecosystems haven't had to deal with until the last century or two.

treeswarper wrote:
I suggest you go out into a clearcut.  Off the road, off the landing.  Actually look at what is on the ground. 

treeswarper wrote:
This area is finished.
This area is finished.

Whew, you're not implying that this picture is representative of all clearcuts, or even the average clearcut? Come on now.

Ski wrote:
I'm searching now for a new ophthalmologist, because apparently my eyeballs have been lying to me for the last 65 years.

I guess people are going to see what they want to see. Goes both ways.
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treeswarper
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PostThu Jun 27, 2019 3:35 pm 
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doppelganger, I guess I thought you knew a bit more than it appears you do....don't feel bad.

That picture is NOT a clearcut.  It is showing a unit that was just logged.  Maybe a few days after the last logs were taken out.  The original stand was what grew after the Cispus Burn.  Trees were about 80 years old.  It was a thinning and was yarded with a helicopter.  It's about as low impact as you can get, 'cept for having to have a large landing area (clearcut) for the helicopter, fueling equipment, and the usual landing stuff.

I wanted to show that not all is lost when an area is "logged".  Loggers are quite capable of doing a careful job.  They will generally do what the landowner wants done or they'll be looking for work elsewhere.  It does take a bit of communication and somebody wandering through the unit(s) making sure that things are working out as planned.  Then communicating how things are turning out with the logger.

That picture of downed wood is another thinning where a nice job was done.  The other shows a corridor, which is needed when skyline yarding.  That was yet another thinning in progress and in order to avoid building a road, what was called an intermediate support had to be hung to keep the skyline from hitting the ground.  The ground profile was not favorable for cable yarding.  The corridor is about ten feet wide.

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Doppelganger
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PostFri Jun 28, 2019 6:47 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
doppelganger, I guess I thought you knew a bit more than it appears you do....don't feel bad. 

Hmm, a handful of pictures without context and the relevant 3 paragraph description comes 30+ hours later. Sorry, I was busy reading other minds yesterday!

treeswarper wrote:
That picture is NOT a clearcut.  It is showing a unit that was just logged.  Maybe a few days after the last logs were taken out. 

This looks great for a logged area, fwiw I applaud the work and progress that made these methods possible and hope their implementation continues, replacing the destructive methods that result in stripping those parcels down to the dirt.
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Kim Brown
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PostFri Jun 28, 2019 8:44 am 
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A few photos of a selected logging operation that doesn't result in a totally churned stomach doesn't prove that most cuts aren't stomach-churning, and clear-cuts always are.

We're not stupid - we drive forest roads, we can see it.

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treeswarper
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PostSun Jun 30, 2019 1:10 pm 
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Kim Brown wrote:
A few photos of a selected logging operation that doesn't result in a totally churned stomach doesn't prove that most cuts aren't stomach-churning, and clear-cuts always are.

We're not stupid - we drive forest roads, we can see it.

Not so sure about that last point.  Sure you drive the roads.  But do you understand that forests are used to disturbance?  Are you an educated expert in forest silviculture?  Soils?  Watersheds? in order to pronounce that all clearcutting is bad because you don't like the looks of it?   Can you understand that one size does not fit all when it comes to forest management?  Can you understand uneven aged management?  Commercial thinning?  Precommercial thinning?  Thinning via basal area?  Shelterwood?  Thinning from below?  Thinning from above?  How to locate a wildlife clump in one of those offending clearcuts so trees are not likely to be blown down and equipment can work through or around it?  Do you know about treatments after harvest?  Lopping and scattering?  Hand piles?  Machine piles?  Slash left for wildlife purposes?  Do you know how to locate roads and landings?  How about what species to replant with?  How many seedlings per acre?  What year of seedlings?  Wildlife damage?  How about closing roads?  Removing fill?  Pipes?  Figuring out where to locate soil removed from fills?  Erosion control methods? ...

An upset tummy is an emotional reaction.   But by golly, it must work and some of us wasted money studying forestry when all we had to do was go by our "gut" feelings.

The meadow.  Can you hear the skeeters?
The meadow.  Can you hear the skeeters?

Good heavens!  Don't look at that picture!  There are stumps along the edges and your tummy will feel icky.

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Kim Brown
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PostMon Jul 01, 2019 12:14 pm 
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Yes, yes, I do have an education in watershed management and environmental policy. Roads and trails give ample opportunity to see cuts.

There is no reason to treat me or any of us like foolish ninnies by posting mocking comments as if we've never read anything about logging and conservation before in our lives.

We’ve gone over this millions of times on this site. We are not stupid people, we’re not unreasonable idiots. We understand science.

As stated earlier, I feel clear-cut overwhelms a forest, thereby inhibiting or destroying its ability to function in the ecosystem within it, surrounding it, and down the watershed from it.  The 2 photos below are examples of a forest overwhelmed by clearcutting. They are different from the experience you posted about.

As evidenced by the lack of forest in your photo of a meadow that once was forest, that forest was severely impacted by logging. This forest is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!!He's f*ckin' snuffed it!..... THIS IS AN EX-FOREST!!

forest trying to recover
forest trying to recover
not a fully functioning forest or a meadow
not a fully functioning forest or a meadow

BUT back to the point of the thread.

Does anyone know how the current rule proposal is different from the 2012 Planning Rule?

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Ski
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PostMon Jul 01, 2019 10:17 pm 
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^ Nope.. not a clue.

Curious about your photos there.... those are on... PUBLIC land? or PRIVATE land?

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PostTue Jul 02, 2019 6:07 am 
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Ski wrote:
Curious about your photos there.... those are on... PUBLIC land? or PRIVATE land?

If I had to guess I would say that the pics are of DNR trust land. They plant twice as much as I used to for the forest service as a kid and then go in and thin it out at maybe fifteen years. I wish I would have taken pics or video of a section on  Snahapish river I hiked through cutthroat fishing.....just begging to become a nasty forest fire. they kill half of what they plant.I do not get it
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Ski
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PostTue Jul 02, 2019 7:40 am 
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Like these I took on a plantation unit between the 22 road and Sams River? Most likely on a DNR unit:


Most of that real estate up there is school trust land managed by DNR.

There are units like that all over the Clearwater/Solleks watershed and in a little pocket between the Queets and Quinault.
If you get in there on the more mature units stocked mostly with hemlock the chanterelle picking is pretty good.

Kim wrote:
We’ve gone over this millions of times on this site.

Yep... and nobody's changin' anybody's minds, are they?

I'll refer again to that recent University of Michigan study that concluded that when people with belief systems/ideologies are presented with facts that refute their belief systems/ideologies, they become more resolute and more convinced that they are right, facts to the contrary notwithstanding.

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Doppelganger
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PostTue Jul 02, 2019 8:06 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
in order to pronounce that all clearcutting is bad because you don't like the looks of it?

Are you still stuck on that? It's been clearly stated that it's not about the looks.

treeswarper wrote:
How to locate a wildlife clump in one of those offending clearcuts so trees are not likely to be blown down and equipment can work through or around it? 

I have some trouble with this, it seems like saying "how to locate the occupied homes in the neighborhood before launching a strike so only the surrounding homes are destroyed". Maybe that's just me.

treeswarper wrote:
An upset tummy is an emotional reaction.  But by golly, it must work and some of us wasted money studying forestry when all we had to do was go by our "gut" feelings.

The meadow.  Can you hear the skeeters?
The meadow.  Can you hear the skeeters?

Good heavens!  Don't look at that picture!  There are stumps along the edges and your tummy will feel icky.

Forestry is necessarily intertwined with the logging industry, and while the gains and benefits should be recognized and upheld, you have to concede that the two go hand in hand (if ever there was a time they did not). I'm more concerned with stewardship than resource management. This picture shows me some stubble on the face of the hill (hiding plenty of stumps as well I'm sure) and 3 or 4 trees left behind... as a wildlife clump I suppose? I'd rather the hill have the original set of trees, it's stunning that this is also an unpopular opinion in Stewardship biggrin.gif
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PostTue Jul 02, 2019 11:38 am 
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Kim Brown wrote:
A few photos of a selected logging operation that doesn't result in a totally churned stomach doesn't prove that most cuts aren't stomach-churning, and clear-cuts always are.

We're not stupid - we drive forest roads, we can see it.

I'm uncertain how an objective argument can be formed about stomach churning, since the churn depends entirely on values you've chosen to hold, and thus, the same objective evidence presented to two people can be churn full, or churn free, depending on their chosen values.

Another poster said it's not about the looks, it's about something else, like impacts of other sorts, presumably..where we wind up in exactly the same territory, based upon ones chosen values.

This is the reason there is no solving and no mind changing taking place. The basis is not actually a reasoned one on any side, hence no amount of reason will persuade.  It's not about anyone being stupid, which I recognize as a light jest of sorts. Both sides will have to make their peace with a compromise, and make the same peace with allowing that those darned other folks are not immoral, evil or stupid....IF the goal is a healthy, functional society with give and take and not endless, throat cutting political warfare and gamesmanship. (I'm not saying this is your deal as such)

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