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SwitchbackFisher
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PostTue Jul 16, 2019 3:15 pm 
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seattlenativemike wrote:
This WTA post calling out a few guys who had campfires and left cig butts around Minotaur Lake really aggravates

WTA Post

I saw that to, same reaction. I think I have only been on 1 or 2 hikes this year without packing out someone else's trash. It has been pretty bad this year. Do people not realize a fire ring is not where you leave trash for the next person to deal with it.

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I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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RandyHiker
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PostTue Jul 16, 2019 4:25 pm 
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Unfortunately a number of people believe "rules are for someone else"

I encountered a group snow camped on Mazama ridge several years ago that had come equipped with axes and sven saws and were cutting down silver snags when I encountered them.   I informed them that wood cutting and campfires were illegal in that location and subject to a large fine by the NPS.   They claimed ignorance.   But when I returned to the location the next day there was evidence of a large bonfire and an attempt to bury the ashes with snow.   I informed the NPS of their activity -- but I don't know whether the NPS was able to follow up (using the winter camping permit system to identify the campers)
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Brucester
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PostFri Aug 09, 2019 5:52 am 
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I'm in this debate with a hiking buddy right now about Instagram....

She has 30 followers. She is active on Instagram.

I have 0 followers.... I'd NEVER do insta-anything other than instant oatmeal. Although to be completely transparent, I think puzzlr looks at my pics on Flickr tho. 1 follower? lol

Since I began hiking with my hiking buddy I've been hestitant about telling her where we were hiking. She said it was to tell her husband..... I had a feeling it was also for Insta____. That was before I saw www.publiclandshateyou.com

My take is that I am passionate about hiking and don't want to promote my adventures. My soul takes the experiance, I take some pics, I remove garbage and properly dispose of it. That's all. Maybe I'll share a trip here, because maybe foolishly I assume it's your eyes only.

Instagram I get it, but I disagree with the artists (in nature) and the group mentality.... As for my friend, she likes friends and loves family. I get that too.

I just see more bad things coming out of social media.

Can I turn this around? Thinking I should take her on a WTA work party and take her on a clean up. Then she'll see where I'm coming from?

FB.... isn't that kinda just as bad???

I have another hiking buddy, she does that....

Along with LNT we should promote Even if it's not yours, it's our responsibility, pack it out!
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awilsondc
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PostFri Aug 09, 2019 6:16 am 
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Brucester wrote:
She has 30 followers. She is active on Instagram.

Lets say she makes a post, and even includes location.  Lets say all 30 people see it.  How many are going to then go?  Maybe a one, two?  Who are her followers?  Friends and family probably.  Are they good people with good wilderness ethics?  Look, I wouldn't worry about that.  They use the term "influencer" for people with large followings who influence the behavior of others.  We're talking massive amounts of followers.  Like hundreds of thousands or millions.  If your friend had a following like that, yeah I'd be worried.  30... don't sweat it.  Your trip reports here are seen by hundreds to thousands of people.  Not necessarily your "followers" but a report you post is going to have bigger impact than your friend's Instagram post in terms of people seeing it.
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Animal Chin
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PostFri Aug 09, 2019 6:19 am 
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The problem with social media is that it creates huge hordes of people in one area at a time with just one post.  I am a member on the Washington Hikers and Climbers Facebook group(I don't post on there) just to see where the hoards are going to be.  I remember a couple of years back when there were multiple postings about Gothic Basin.  Next thing you know, the hoards are up there.  I went up there to check out the area that I once loved due the solitude.  Only to find an area with hoards of people and piles upon piles of feces and toilet paper.
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SwitchbackFisher
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PostFri Aug 09, 2019 7:09 am 
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I understand where most of you are coming from. This is not meant to be a jab at anyone's age or anything like that, but a lot of the more experienced people on here could probably make a good impact if we really tried. A lot of these young IGers probably never had a parental figure or role model to teach good LNT and wilderness ethics to them, some of you who do really cool things and go to cool places can grab their attention and fill that void. There are enough of us who care that we probably could make a difference. I have been thinking about ways to use social media to help promote LNT and good ethics at the same time. I have been thinking of trash challenges, like the ice bucket challenge if you don't take a bag to hike trash out on your next hike you need to donate to whatever, tag everyone. And when you see bad things like illegal fire rings trash whatever photograph that and post about how bad that is.

I know that me posting these places can be counter intuitive for solitude, but I only have real friends to so the impact I can make in minimal. Especially since half my contacts are military friends who don't live anywhere near WA.

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I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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Jake Robinson
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PostFri Aug 09, 2019 12:50 pm 
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awilsondc wrote:
Not necessarily your "followers" but a report you post is going to have bigger impact than your friend's Instagram post in terms of people seeing it.

Totally agree...I think a lot of people on here underestimate the influence that NWHikers has. The community that participates is relatively small, but the TRs are read by a TON of people. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a TR posted here, then the next weekend several parties are going to that same destination and posting about it on FB/Instagram. Ripple effect.

Going to the mountains is a deeply meaningful experience for me, and as such I feel the urge to document it. I also like the idea of giving back to this community, which has given me so much - trip ideas, route descriptions, friends and hiking/climbing partners, etc. But the TR effect is very real - when people see a TR they are going to want to go there -and detailed route descriptions and GPS navigation have significantly lowered the barrier to entry for a lot of places. That, combined with an increasing population of hikers, leads to crowds in previously uncrowded places.

I really don't know what to think. I'd be a hypocrite to talk down about TRs as I have written many here and have enjoyed doing so. But you can't deny the influence of the internet. This past Saturday, four separate parties summited Luna Peak. On Sunday, at least two parties summited. And on Monday, there was another party hiking in to Luna Col. Something tells me it wasn't like this pre-internet...
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iron
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PostFri Aug 09, 2019 1:07 pm 
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don't post maps of gps routes. weeds out the clueless ones at least.

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man, you go through life, you try to be nice to people, you struggle to resist the urge to punch 'em in the face, and for what?

--- moe sizlack
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neek
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PostFri Aug 09, 2019 2:28 pm 
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SwitchbackFisher wrote:
I understand where most of you are coming from. This is not meant to be a jab at anyone's age or anything like that, but a lot of the more experienced people on here could probably make a good impact if we really tried. A lot of these young IGers probably never had a parental figure or role model to teach good LNT and wilderness ethics to them, some of you who do really cool things and go to cool places can grab their attention and fill that void. There are enough of us who care that we probably could make a difference. I have been thinking about ways to use social media to help promote LNT and good ethics at the same time. I have been thinking of trash challenges, like the ice bucket challenge if you don't take a bag to hike trash out on your next hike you need to donate to whatever, tag everyone. And when you see bad things like illegal fire rings trash whatever photograph that and post about how bad that is.

I like where you're going with that.  Both positive reinforcement as well as confrontation and shaming are needed--here's yet another depressing WTA report on J. Lake that demonstrates why education alone won't suffice.  Maybe it's time to get myself FB and IG accounts and dive into the cesspool.  IMO "influencers" need to do more to promote LNT and respectful behavior.  But hey, we're all influencers to some degree.  I'm also trying to get more into trail maintenance so that people have alternatives to the more popular areas, and aren't incentivized to do damage e.g. by walking around mud or blowdown.

I don't post gps tracks, but do sometimes include a high level map.  If anyone ever thinks I've gone too far, please speak up.  Only once has someone (not a member here) said "I wouldn't have posted that."  But sharing is part of the fun.  It just needs to be done thoughtfully, and balanced with action.
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Brucester
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PostSun Aug 11, 2019 2:52 pm 
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Thanks awilsondc!
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slabbyd
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PostMon Aug 12, 2019 9:40 am 
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neek wrote:
I don't post gps tracks, but do sometimes include a high level map.  If anyone ever thinks I've gone too far, please speak up.  Only once has someone (not a member here) said "I wouldn't have posted that."  But sharing is part of the fun.  It just needs to be done thoughtfully, and balanced with action.

Your Bath Lakes TR will ABSOLUTELY result in groups traveling that area who would otherwise would not have thought of it or felt they had adequate knowledge to pull it off.   There's a significant difference between say posting all your best scenery shots and providing an annotated photo of how to pass the crux section along with an annotated topo map of your entire route.

So IMO you've gone to far! 

Bath Lakes seems like exactly the type of place that people should earn through experience, planning and accepting an uncertain outcome.   I'd say your TR effectively eliminates that.
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MtnGoat
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PostMon Aug 12, 2019 9:59 am 
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Never post maps or GPS tracks is my take. Leave something for people to work out for themselves.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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joker
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PostMon Aug 12, 2019 10:52 am 
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I think that to the extent social media is incenting more people to get out there (even if through "FOMO" at first) that's fine and good. The problems I see are:
1) the tendency of a posts of a relatively few particularly photo-trophy-worthy spots to get concentrated attention and hence use and thus hammering; particularly problematic if these are sensitive spots  (I can think of multiple semi-off-trail lake or tarn type spots that  have  undergone this transformation and the landscape by them is showing the consequences)
2) the extent to which those incented to get  out end up totally bypassing any sort of on-ramp/indoctrination that  includes some understanding of lower-impact practices
3) the way in which GPS  tracks and annotated maps and photos tend to  concentrate use on off-trail routes to  an extent that's  greater than was seen  from following the terse descriptions in Beckey's guides etc.

What I hope to  see, and I'm trying through my own posting behavior, particularly on FB, to  "be the change" is more sensitivity around 1-3, but without necessarily going to "no more posting" as the  answer. If social media is going  to continue to be a big on-ramp to the sport (which  I think it is) it is more valuable if  people keep posting but model some norms such as:
A) NOT posting about super sensitive spots that can't handle a ton of  new feet. This includes even just tag-less photos whose location can be ID'd by other  posters
B) sharing info on a range of other  hikes, in such a way as to better approximate, or even improve upon, the "dispersing of impact" nature of many guidebooks (e.g. the many hundreds of hikes in the "hundred hikes"  series surely brought new feet to many places, but the  impact was fairly dispersed compared to much o f what I see from social media's current  impact; but it doesn't have to be that way!!)
C) finding ways to share info on safety, impact, etc. that helps provide some degree of the education that  older on-ramps such as outing clubs and guidebook prefatory sections have typically  done
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Dante
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PostMon Aug 12, 2019 3:10 pm 
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I don't know, but I've been going to the Olympic Coast most years since the 1990s.  This was the first year I recall receiving a printed flier showing the location of each privy and text urging me not to be a "surface pooper".  Kinda sad that some people can't figure out on their own that they pooping on the ground and leaving their poop and TP there is not OK  confused.gif

Driftwood for fires was way harder to find this year than it was last year or the year before, too.
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NacMacFeegle
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PostMon Aug 12, 2019 5:55 pm 
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I've seen this discussion all over the place, and I think the problem is more the fault of over population in general than social media. For sure, social media is getting more people out into the wilderness, but that's not entirely a bad thing - after all, we need as high a percentage of the population as possible to support protecting wild places and the environment in general. Personally, I am careful about the locations I share and the information I provide. Some places need more visitors in order to build the support necessary to preserve them, while others are sensitive and could easily be ruined by a few too many people. Ideally a gradual decline in global population is necessary, but that's a complex and politically charged issue.

A more feasible short term solution would be to convert degraded commercial timber farms into parks with a focus on maximizing visitor capacity. Since restoration would be necessary, it could be done with an eye towards aesthetics and creating locations that would spark viral interest on social media. Suitable areas are also located closer to population centers than existing public lands, thus making them even more of a potential magnet for the crowds. In one fell swoop we could eliminate overcrowding, improve ecosystem, air, and water quality throughout the region, and dramatically increase the economic impact of outdoor recreation in rural communities.

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