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RandyHiker
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PostTue Jul 23, 2019 9:40 am 
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SwitchbackFisher wrote:
I could really trigger some people and say the ecological damage made by using a plastic bag per a meal when backpacking is worse for the environment than a small safe contained fire using the same tools every time and ones drop of wilderness wash...

Some Points:

1) The vast bulk of people eating out of a bag are doing so for the convenience of not having to wash pots and bowls.

2) The truly eco-friendly folks are making their own dehydrated meals, packing home the used freezer bags, washing them out and reusing them several times.  There are plastic bag drying racks sold for the express purpose of using plastic bags multiple times.

3) The "environment" is in general is a distinct issue from the "usage" impact of backcountry camping.   Alpine and semi-alpine ecosystems are fragile and slow to recover.  Camp fires near timberline have far longer impact than camp fires enjoyed at lower elevation where wood is abundant and regrowth is vigorous.

4) For the "environment" in general -- driving to the trailhead is one of the bigger impacts.   several orders of magnitude greater than the carbon footprint of the plastic bags (even if used only once)
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SwitchbackFisher
Boot buster



Joined: 24 Feb 2018
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Boot buster
PostTue Jul 23, 2019 9:49 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
SwitchbackFisher wrote:
I could really trigger some people and say the ecological damage made by using a plastic bag per a meal when backpacking is worse for the environment than a small safe contained fire using the same tools every time and ones drop of wilderness wash...

Some Points:

1) The vast bulk of people eating out of a bag are doing so for the convenience of not having to wash pots and bowls.

2) The truly eco-friendly folks are making their own dehydrated meals, packing home the used freezer bags, washing them out and reusing them several times.  There are plastic bag drying racks sold for the express purpose of using plastic bags multiple times.

3) The "environment" is in general is a distinct issue from the "usage" impact of backcountry camping.   Alpine and semi-alpine ecosystems are fragile and slow to recover.  Camp fires near timberline have far longer impact than camp fires enjoyed at lower elevation where wood is abundant and regrowth is vigorous.

4) For the "environment" in general -- driving to the trailhead is one of the bigger impacts.   several orders of magnitude greater than the carbon footprint of the plastic bags (even if used only once)

Randy hiker you do make some good points as well as some speculations that are either to broad or I feel may not be accurate. Mostly about driving to the trailhead a lot depends on type of vehicle you are talking about and distance traveled obviously.

I will say I never really thought about drying my own bags clever idea really, and I do make and dehydrate my own meals for backpacking too, who the hell can afford mountain houses for a 5 day trip, and ramen, potatoes, and packets of fish etc.

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I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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Doppelganger
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Joined: 09 Feb 2006
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Gorecrow
PostTue Jul 23, 2019 10:15 am 
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BigBrunyon wrote:
WA Hikers Climbers is the 101 to hiking. As in those in it are currently in the class. They haven't passed yet! And looks like large numbers are not on a current trajectory to ever pass it. Yet they're still allowed into these alpine havens! Should have to pass first!

Close I90 to hikers between Issaquah and Preston. Make them hike the Alps to get back and forth, if you don't get your pass stamped at the abandoned bus you have to go back.
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Foist
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Joined: 08 May 2006
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Sultan of Sweat
PostTue Jul 23, 2019 10:28 am 
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I would suggest that if you guys are trying to educate and persuade casual or new hikers on following the rules about fires, it is best not to take really extreme positions like, NEVER EVER build any fire, or don't spill a drop of soap or wash and re-use ziploc bags (I've never heard that one, that's just gross), even if you think these practices are best.  People will just dismiss you as an unhinged zealot. Just focus on what the actual rules are regarding backcountry fires.
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Kim Brown
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PostTue Jul 23, 2019 11:00 am 
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Foist wrote:
People will just dismiss you as an unhinged zealot.

embarassedlaugh.gif

There was a freak who wrote a book about backpacking (I think it was Jardine, but not sure – I get my freaks mixed up) and advised people take their own utensils into a restaurant for the post-hike meal because you don’t know if the place was clean. However, he didn’t seem to be concerned about the utensils used by the cook, how the food was cooked, the cleanliness of the pots, pans, dishes, kitchen tables, or the dining room tables, chairs and restroom. I suppose he’d have been OK with the disgustingly dirty and now-defunct Good Food in Marblemount so long as he had his own fork.

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" I'm really happy about this! … I have very strong good and horrible memories up there."  – oldgranola, NWH’s outdoors advocate.
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Foist
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PostTue Jul 23, 2019 11:08 am 
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lol.gif
There is also a guy on this site who, although I generally enjoy his reports and contributions, frequently admonishes people not even to move a rock in the backcountry.  That is bonkers.
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JonnyQuest
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PostTue Jul 23, 2019 11:24 am 
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Foist wrote:
admonishes people not even to move a rock in the backcountry

Unless the rock is part of a cairn, in which case it's OK to move.
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Kim Brown
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PostTue Jul 23, 2019 11:25 am 
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Foist wrote:
lol.gif
That is bonkers.


Well - yes and no.

If you move a rock toward a river or stream, you are helping it reach its lifetime goal of becoming a new rock by stuffing itself into the nearest ocean trench where it will be transformed.

But if you move it uphill, take it home, put it behind a much bigger rock, cement it into a sidewalk, or otherwise inhibit its ability to move toward the nearest ocean trench, it is an egregious act against rocks.

Let’s all work together to aid rocks.

Rock Aid: The Concert for Rocks.

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" I'm really happy about this! … I have very strong good and horrible memories up there."  – oldgranola, NWH’s outdoors advocate.
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contour5
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PostTue Jul 23, 2019 11:50 am 
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I noticed a bit of an uptick in lawless behavior on a recent trip. The camps on the Cle Elum River road all had roaring campfires on a warm afternoon, despite the large signs prohibiting fires.

Peggy's Pond was a disgrace. There was a large, cabin style tent on the meadow grass right next to the lake. My camp had a large fire pit with a pile of un-burned green tree limbs. Nearby, I noticed several small trees had been chopped down. Pistachio shells littered the ground, and fifty feet away, right next to the trail was a mound of poop with an array of white flags.

It will probably take a cholera epidemic or a major backcountry hepatitis outbreak to get the slobs to stop behaving this way.
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Backpacker Joe
NWH Joe-Bob



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
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NWH Joe-Bob
PostTue Jul 23, 2019 12:06 pm 
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Nothing will stop this behavior.  If you gave a damn you wouldn’t act this way in the first place.

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"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."

— Abraham Lincoln
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Cyclopath
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Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Faster than light
PostTue Jul 23, 2019 12:40 pm 
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Foist wrote:
I would suggest that if you guys are trying to educate and persuade casual or new hikers on following the rules about fires, it is best not to take really extreme positions like, NEVER EVER build any fire, or don't spill a drop of soap or wash and re-use ziploc bags (I've never heard that one, that's just gross), even if you think these practices are best.  People will just dismiss you as an unhinged zealot. Just focus on what the actual rules are regarding backcountry fires.

I'm going to start telling people LNT principals are enforced by woodland snipers.

It's only fire that can set me off, and I don't speak in absolutes, I just mention what we go through, and how a lot of wildfires are started as camp fires.  I usually assume the people involved were well meaning, and didn't intend to burn 100,000 acres.
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rubywrangler
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PostTue Jul 23, 2019 1:32 pm 
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Foist wrote:
wash and re-use ziploc bags (I've never heard that one, that's just gross)

Why is this gross? No different than washing dishes. Just hold your breath while you rinse them out, then turn them inside out and wash. Don't even need one of those fancy drying racks, the freezer bags will stand up all by themselves. NBD.
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RandyHiker
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
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Location: Bellevue at the moment.
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PostTue Jul 23, 2019 1:54 pm 
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rubywrangler wrote:
Foist wrote:
wash and re-use ziploc bags (I've never heard that one, that's just gross)

Why is this gross? No different than washing dishes. Just hold your breath while you rinse them out, then turn them inside out and wash. Don't even need one of those fancy drying racks, the freezer bags will stand up all by themselves. NBD.

Foist clearly isn't the "crunchiest" of hikers.

I mean if they sell it on Amazon it can't be that far out side the mainstream

https://www.amazon.com/FloWorks-Design-Plastic-Bag-Dryer/dp/B003ZE2ODO
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Anne Elk
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Joined: 07 Sep 2018
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BrontosaurusTheorist
PostTue Jul 23, 2019 3:06 pm 
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I think one reason the slobs and scofflaws continue to do this kind of stuff is that they know they can get away with it.  We could learn a few things from the Canadian warden service in Banff and etc National Parks.  Don't know what their numbers are like and how much regular patrollig they do, but when they catch someone without a permit or otherwise doing something obnoxious, they issue citations.  The wardens even do targeted heli-patrolling.  Don't know how they make that approach pencil.

For certain more serious offenses, I understand the wardens have the LE authority to confiscate everything used in the commission of the "crime", including the offender's car.  Even "commando camping" around the townsite these days is verboten.  Yep, a lot's changed up there since the 70's and 80's.

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"There are yahoos out there.  It’s why we can’t have nice things."  - Tom Mahood
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Cyclopath
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Faster than light
PostTue Jul 23, 2019 3:31 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
I mean if they sell it on Amazon it can't be that far out side the mainstream

Challenge accepted.

25 Placenta Recipes
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