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SwitchbackFisher
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PostTue Jul 23, 2019 2:32 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
I mean if they sell it on Amazon it can't be that far out side the mainstream

Challenge accepted.

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gb
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PostTue Jul 23, 2019 4:00 pm 
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contour5 wrote:
I noticed a bit of an uptick in lawless behavior on a recent trip. The camps on the Cle Elum River road all had roaring campfires on a warm afternoon, despite the large signs prohibiting fires.

Peggy's Pond was a disgrace. There was a large, cabin style tent on the meadow grass right next to the lake. My camp had a large fire pit with a pile of un-burned green tree limbs. Nearby, I noticed several small trees had been chopped down. Pistachio shells littered the ground, and fifty feet away, right next to the trail was a mound of poop with an array of white flags.

It will probably take a cholera epidemic or a major backcountry hepatitis outbreak to get the slobs to stop behaving this way.

A lot of people lack common sense. Those with daytime fires like - or get anyway- lots of smoke.
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backpacker92out
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PostTue Jul 23, 2019 5:10 pm 
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Christ even at Cyclone? That's sad...

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FiresideChats
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PostTue Jul 23, 2019 8:55 pm 
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Backpacker Joe wrote:
Nothing will stop this behavior.  If you gave a damn you wouldn’t act this way in the first place.

I agree that in our culture we have a defiance-against-authority-hell-yeah attitude that some people adopt to the hilt and many more adopt in passive-aggressive ways. We also have the being-young-is-wild-and-stupid-bruh-duh mentality. If anyone has an easy fix for either of these mentalities, please let this middle school teacher know.

On the other side, I remember discussing crime with a native of Croatia during my grad school days. He described how crime was never an issue in Eastern Europe and travellers lived free of fear, as no one would ever mess with you. Communism meant that people had little to steal and no inclination to steal what little there was, which I found provocative on multiple levels.

No, I don't see an easy fix outside of common sense policies, education, and law enforcement of bad behavior.
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pula58
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PostWed Jul 24, 2019 2:17 pm 
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I forgot to mention in my original post: The fire went way down into the ground (several feet deep), and destroyed the big fat main roots of the trees. The trees are most certainly doomed.
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pula58
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PostWed Jul 24, 2019 2:31 pm 
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And I might add, that these days, with so many people in the back country, we must absolutely leave no trace at all. Not just "some" trace, because "some" when multiplied by thousands of people becomes a lot. So I agree with others: No fires at all.

And it's not like leaving no trace is difficult, it is easy. I know because my wife and I have been doing it for years, actually, decades. And we also clean up other peoples mess.

I wonder if WA state should offer a free 3 hr course on LNT and require that anyone who wants to enter the backcountry take the course, take a test to prove they learned the essentials, and then be issued a permit (also free). So, you wouldn't have to pay, but you would have to take the course, and pass, and get the permit to be able to enter the back country.
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HikerJohn
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PostWed Jul 24, 2019 3:41 pm 
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I am one of those who like the smell of wood smoke when camping and when appropriate.

But I'm also a wilderness ranger for the USFS who has to clean up after these jackasses who insist on building fires where they don't belong.  For example, last week I was up at Summit Lake on patrol and had to wipe out THREE separate fire rings in this area.  This is an area where Green Trails maps, WTA, and others make it clear that no fires are allowed and there are no less than FOUR signs that say "no fires" in the Summit Lake basin as you are hiking in.

I can't ticket folks (not a Forest Protection Officer) but even if I could, the ticket cost is minuscule.

I've often wondered that if the NHL wanted to not have fights, they could make the fines $10,000 or higher-- and I'll bet they wouldn't have fights.   Or if we really didn't want people to talk on the phone while driving, they could make the fine $500 or more.

So if we want to preserve the wilderness, perhaps we need to consider making the penalty for "leaving a trace" a bit stronger..... 

Thoughts???
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Kim Brown
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PostWed Jul 24, 2019 4:00 pm 
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Gwen and I had to clean up a fire PIT on the fragile meadow at Trap Lake a few years ago. The thing was about 12x15 FEET, and a couple of feet deep, and full of wires, raw fish, and raw chicken that had been there a few days. We cleaned it on Saturday and hauled that stinky stuff around with us the rest of the 90+ degree weekend.

Answer? I don't have any.

But minimizing a human-caused fire to trees as someone up-post did isn’t helping; it’s the wrong message, I think. It actually plants the seed that it’s OK to do that.

The USFS doesn’t want to have a bunch of heavies out there with ticket books, but perhaps they need to…? But there’s no budget.   frown.gif

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Cyclopath
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PostWed Jul 24, 2019 4:06 pm 
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HikerJohn wrote:
For example, last week I was up at Summit Lake on patrol and had to wipe out THREE separate fire rings in this area.  This is an area where Green Trails maps, WTA, and others make it clear that no fires are allowed and there are no less than FOUR signs that say "no fires" in the Summit Lake basin as you are hiking in.

I camped in the Teanaway once, below Iron Peak.  Lovely camp site.  Far enough above the no fires elevation to leave no doubt (eg no question of whether your altimeter is off).  Immediately found a fire ring.

I do enjoy a fire sometimes, and I might be the only person alive who likes wandering around gathering dead and down wood.  Breathing suffocating above for a month without relief and not being able to see landmarks a mile away has really changed how I feel about this.  I don't understand how that's not universal.
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Cyclopath
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PostWed Jul 24, 2019 4:09 pm 
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pula58 wrote:
I wonder if WA state should offer a free 3 hr course on LNT and require that anyone who wants to enter the backcountry take the course, take a test to prove they learned the essentials, and then be issued a permit (also free). So, you wouldn't have to pay, but you would have to take the course, and pass, and get the permit to be able to enter the back country.

We do something like that for driving, and it's amazing the kind of things people think are a good idea behind the wheel.
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moonspots
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PostThu Jul 25, 2019 7:31 am 
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HikerJohn wrote:
Or if we really didn't want people to talk on the phone while driving, they could make the fine $500 or more.

So if we want to preserve the wilderness, perhaps we need to consider making the penalty for "leaving a trace" a bit stronger..... 

Thoughts???

up.gif  up.gif  up.gif

I thought the phone/text fines here in WA were (are?) ~ $500, not so?

Anyway, you've got the right idea though.

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Anne Elk
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BrontosaurusTheorist
PostThu Jul 25, 2019 1:54 pm 
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This article caught my eye and I'm posting it in this thread for the pic of all the scofflaws at Uluru, just as an illustration of the numbers of people who just don't give a damn. Why anyone put up the fixed guide in the first place is anyone's guess, fortunately it's coming down soon.

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Foist
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PostThu Jul 25, 2019 1:56 pm 
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The link just goes to the Washington Post homepage.
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Tom
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PostThu Jul 25, 2019 1:57 pm 
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Fixed it.
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Cyclopath
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PostThu Jul 25, 2019 2:16 pm 
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moonspots wrote:
I thought the phone/text fines here in WA were (are?) ~ $500, not so?

Based on my experience as a road cyclist, I think there's a $500 fine for not using your phone while you drive.   eek.gif
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