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contour5 Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 2963 | TRs | Pics
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contour5
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Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:18 pm
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All of the above. Borrow your brothers ID, along with the permit. Wear a wig if you have to. Colored contact lenses, high-end cosmetics and plastic surgery are just a few of the tools you can use to terraform yourself a new identity.
Or, you could just show up for the magic hat. I'm 8 for 8, on the first try every single time. I always went in with the idea that I could just dayhike and try again the next day, if I failed at the hat, but I drew a core permit every time. Weekdays are best.
I've been accosted by trail monitors at Snow Lakes who were straight up gangster in their intensity; I don't even like going that way any more. Aside from that one incident I've had pretty minimal contact with forest service personnel or volunteers in the Enchantments, and it's always been pleasant and hassle free when I did cross paths with them.
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Randito Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008 Posts: 9513 | TRs | Pics Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:22 pm
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Oldguy wrote: | I would guess that after you contacted the ranger station with your questions and the postings on here, you might be walking into a greeting by an alerted ranger. Just saying. |
I don't think it works that way -- the work schedules are planned way in advance and the rangers are already on the "alert".
The demand for Enchantment permits is many times more than the available supply. They have plenty of folks trying to game the system without any permit.
IME when you encounter a "by the rules" person in charge of stuff like the is -- sometimes it can pay off to try again the next day and see if you happen get a different person with a more flexible attitude -- In this case about adding the alternate leader.
However I wouldn't be surprised that their permit system doesn't support any "edits" to the permit once it is issued -- There are rules about "alternate leader" are that being listed as an alternate leader excludes you from being a "leader" for any other trip that season. So it likely has something to do with that.
One of the issues they have had to deal with is people bidding on permits and then reselling them -- so they have developed pretty strict rules about not changing the "leader" to prevent such gaming of the system.
Personally I think they could raise the number of permits considerably without much negative environmental effect, should they institute a "pack it all out" policy as is used for climbing Mt Adams via the south spur and north ridge and provided "blue bags" along with the permit.
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GroundGuru Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2019 Posts: 11 | TRs | Pics
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Haha thanks for all the replies guys. I'm just going to edit in the alternate leader and go.. Sounds like I should be ok.
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Damian Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2001 Posts: 3260 | TRs | Pics
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Damian
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Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:54 am
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I was opposed to the permit system when it was implemented. Much progress had been made without it. And with a name change from the lovely Enchantments to Crotch Divide the there would have been less draw. But here we are. And the folks managing it are good people and likely tired of the many games they've seen played by now. I say work with them. Though that was not my attitude earlier in life.
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GroundGuru Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2019 Posts: 11 | TRs | Pics
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I'm not opposed to the permit system but it's a bit too rigid if I cannot get my name added as alternate when we share the same last name. It's not like my brother is selling the permit. I'll call again today and maybe I can get a less rigid ranger but I feel their hands are tied by the recreation.gov permit system
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hbb Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2009 Posts: 406 | TRs | Pics
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hbb
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Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:51 am
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GroundGuru wrote: | Haha thanks for all the replies guys. I'm just going to edit in the alternate leader and go.. Sounds like I should be ok. |
You might want to take a quick look at 18 U.S.C. 1001 before going through with this scheme.
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CarriesNineFires Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2016 Posts: 134 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
Seems selfish and shameful to make your own rules, especially in such a fragile and heavily-used area, when you could just go almost anywhere else and be subject to zero permit issues.
Also, aren't you going to be embarrassed if you're caught, or do you feel comfortable playing dumb as you lie to the ranger? Basically, your plan is the equivalent of cutting a switchback because the trail isn't to your liking. The moral and ethical consequences are as profound as the tangible damage done. Others will do it too, and do you want to be a part of that crowd?
I would recommend finding another place to go, and go back to the Enchantments another time.
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Cyclopath Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012 Posts: 7745 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:26 pm
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How is he doing unspeakable damage by being there? They issued a permit for 2 and 1 is going. If he's destroying the place by his presence there, they need to stop issuing permits at all.
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Chief Joseph Member
Joined: 10 Nov 2007 Posts: 7709 | TRs | Pics Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
IMO their permit system is flawed, why can’t they have an alternate trip leader in cases such as this? So if a group of say 6 has a trip planned and the trip leader has to cancel, then everyone is SOL? Doesn’t seem right.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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GroundGuru Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2019 Posts: 11 | TRs | Pics
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hbb wrote: | You might want to take a quick look at 18 U.S.C. 1001 before going through with this scheme. |
Innocent until proven guilty though. How will the ranger prove I added my name it if he checks my permit in the enchantments?
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CarriesNineFires Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2016 Posts: 134 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
Cyclopath wrote: | How is he doing unspeakable damage by being there? They issued a permit for 2 and 1 is going. If he's destroying the place by his presence there, they need to stop issuing permits at all. |
I assume you were responding to my post. Perhaps I overstated my case; he's not causing mayhem. My point was simply that when we ignore the rules because we don't think they are important we perpetuate an anarchic mindset. This may be a useful approach in challenging a lot of the government's positions but to be a scofflaw in the scofflaw-rich Enchantments is just irresponsible and wrong. That's all.
The combination of ill-use, overuse and heavy publicity has created the situation which is preventing him from (legally) making this trip. By ignoring the rules he helps to justify the heavy regulation and strict permitting policies that are keeping him out. It's hypocritical and unethical. Again: just go somewhere else this time.
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GroundGuru Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2019 Posts: 11 | TRs | Pics
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CarriesNineFires wrote: | Cyclopath wrote: | How is he doing unspeakable damage by being there? They issued a permit for 2 and 1 is going. If he's destroying the place by his presence there, they need to stop issuing permits at all. |
I assume you were responding to my post. Perhaps I overstated my case; he's not causing mayhem. My point was simply that when we ignore the rules because we don't think they are important we perpetuate an anarchic mindset. This may be a useful approach in challenging a lot of the government's positions but to be a scofflaw in the scofflaw-rich Enchantments is just irresponsible and wrong. That's all.
The combination of ill-use, overuse and heavy publicity has created the situation which is preventing him from (legally) making this trip. By ignoring the rules he helps to justify the heavy regulation and strict permitting policies that are keeping him out. It's hypocritical and unethical. Again: just go somewhere else this time. |
I'm not sure if you appreciate how difficult these permits are to get. Getting one makes people's entire season. I'm causing less harm to the environment then if my brother gave up the permit and two people camped there instead of just me. Strict bureaucracy is the only thing preventing me from going; not conservation.
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Randito Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008 Posts: 9513 | TRs | Pics Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:16 pm
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GroundGuru wrote: | hbb wrote: | You might want to take a quick look at 18 U.S.C. 1001 before going through with this scheme. |
Innocent until proven guilty though. How will the ranger prove I added my name it if he checks my permit in the enchantments? |
Satellite phone or VHF radio back to the ranger station. It's the 21st century, you don't think those rangers are wandering around in the backcountry with no way to check in on a daily basis do you ?
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GroundGuru Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2019 Posts: 11 | TRs | Pics
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RandyHiker wrote: | GroundGuru wrote: | hbb wrote: | You might want to take a quick look at 18 U.S.C. 1001 before going through with this scheme. |
Innocent until proven guilty though. How will the ranger prove I added my name it if he checks my permit in the enchantments? |
Satellite phone or VHF radio back to the ranger station. It's the 21st century, you don't think those rangers are wandering around in the backcountry with no way to check in on a daily basis do you ? |
That's why I asked about the permit checking process. Do they radio back to check permits or do they simply look at it?
I can borrow my brothers ID but then he'd be IDless all weekend which isn't optimal. So I'd like to avoid that if possible.
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Pahoehoe Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2017 Posts: 563 | TRs | Pics
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Pahoehoe
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Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:03 pm
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You are allowed to add several trip leaders.. three, I think?
You can edit participants up til the last minute and it is really clear that you cannot make changes after you print the permit.
I see Carrie's point. Its frusterating but rules have reasons...
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