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BigBrunyon
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PostFri Aug 02, 2019 3:10 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
I thought that goat was staring at people suspiciously.  Good costume.

They really are masters of disguise, aren't they? At this point it is estimated that over 50% of goats you see in the Enchantments are really under cover agents.

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neek
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PostFri Aug 02, 2019 3:20 pm 
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That explains why they're so interested in watching me pee.  (Sorry Kim.)

Seriously though, along the lines of what coldrain said, there are so many great places to go without the red tape, some even in Washington.
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Bernardo
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PostFri Aug 02, 2019 5:18 pm 
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BTW, there are several members here who work for the Forest Service.
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Chief Joseph
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PostFri Aug 02, 2019 5:21 pm 
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Slugman wrote:
So, you have a permit with your name on it, but your brother won't be there, and he is the group leader? Seems strange that you can't  use your own permit. I don't  see any actual rule stating that one person not going means everyone is cancelled.

I stopped entering this rigged fiasco when they started stealing the money of everyone who enters the lottery and gets no permit. Only people who get permits should have to pay anything. The current system is a criminal scam in my opinion.

I agree, the more I hear about the Enchantments, the less I want to go there. Good thing that the Winds aren't close to a metropolitan area.

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CarriesNineFires
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PostFri Aug 02, 2019 6:47 pm 
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Kim Brown wrote:
Why all the questions on what happens if you get caught, people? confused.gif

This is the thing. Who cares what the government will do to you? Why is that the decider?

It's about perpetuating the problems in the Enchantments, it's about various NWHikers on this thread aligning themselves with the mindset of rookies and Instagram stars, it's about not being willing to change your plans because you're dead set on this one thing when you have so many options. It's largely about integrity.
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Pahoehoe
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PostFri Aug 02, 2019 10:08 pm 
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The moral of the story is this whole thread could have been avoided if OP and/or bro of OP read the directions....
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Cyclopath
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PostFri Aug 02, 2019 10:32 pm 
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CarriesNineFires wrote:
It's about perpetuating the problems in the Enchantments, it's about various NWHikers on this thread aligning themselves with the mindset of rookies and Instagram stars, it's about not being willing to change your plans because you're dead set on this one thing when you have so many options. It's largely about integrity.

You're right, he should surrender his permit and let a group of six go instead of one, in order to protect the Enchantments from too much impact from too many people.
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olderthanIusedtobe
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PostFri Aug 02, 2019 11:45 pm 
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coldrain108 wrote:
Here is a better solution...


no quota...and no people.

That is gorgeous.  I'm 99% sure that's the upper Dusy Basin looking at Isosceles and the Palisades, which is a quota area.  Maybe not as hotly contested as the Enchantments, but it does require getting permits.  Not too sure on the claim of no people either.  I think that's a stretch.  South Lake/Bishop Pass is a pretty popular trail system.
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olderthanIusedtobe
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PostFri Aug 02, 2019 11:49 pm 
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This thread lost me a while ago.  The OP is not suggesting poaching a trip to the 'Chants, he has a permit, but there is a technicality.  As someone else pointed out how would surrendering the permit and possibly having a bigger group snag it lessen the impact on the area?

But the thread has been informative.  Damn goats are undercover Federal agents, I never knew.  And there is a new program to thwart crimes on Federal lands before they happen, sounds a lot like "The Minority Report."  I love it when life imitates art.
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CarriesNineFires
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PostSat Aug 03, 2019 8:05 am 
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Cyclopath wrote:
CarriesNineFires wrote:
It's about perpetuating the problems in the Enchantments, it's about various NWHikers on this thread aligning themselves with the mindset of rookies and Instagram stars, it's about not being willing to change your plans because you're dead set on this one thing when you have so many options. It's largely about integrity.

You're right, he should surrender his permit and let a group of six go instead of one, in order to protect the Enchantments from too much impact from too many people.

I appreciate that you quoted my paragraph because it neatly sums up my argument. I am confused and disappointed that you ignored its meaning and instead created an interpretation out of whole cloth.

But such is the nature of the anonymous internet. I'll bow out here.
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Backpacker Joe
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PostSat Aug 03, 2019 9:45 am 
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One of the Eight times Ive been into the Chants I went in without a permit. I was in there three days.  Each day I ran into a ranger and he always checked peoples permit but he NEVER asked to see mine!  On the last day I was there a group of runners (10) came thru and he asked the first guy to see the permit and first guy says, "the last guy has it" he then asks the last guy for the permit and last guys says, "The first guy has it!"  So ranger Joe stops them and gives each one a 50.00 fine, kicks them out and bans them for 5 years!  So there I stand and he never asked me.  Later that day I was coming down from Little Annapurna and I literally ran into his Stephenson 3R tent.  So I yelled, "Hey that's a Stephenson 3R" and who pops their head out of the door than Ranger Joe.  I felt so guilty that I told him I was in there without a permit.  He starts laughing and yells to his wife inside the tent, "Hey Honey this guy confessed!"  She comes out laughing. He told me that in all his years up there nobody ever confessed!   He didn't ticket me because I confessed, but he told me I had to leave the next morning.  I asked him what he'd do if I didn't leave.  He said he'd call in a helicopter, arrest me and fly me out of there!

Long story, but you really don't want to go in there without a permit!!!!

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NacMacFeegle
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PostSat Aug 03, 2019 6:35 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
The permit terms require the party to travel together.

So the "hitting the trail at different times" story might not fly, but it seems absurd that hikers would be required to be glued together in their assigned party for the duration. Is it also explicitly stated that if the group leader bails, then the rest of the party must do the same?

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Tom
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PostSat Aug 03, 2019 6:54 pm 
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Here are the rules per the USFS website.  It says you have to camp together (not hike or stay together at all times) and all members must carry a copy of the permit.  It also says you can have an alternate group leader. Not mentioned on the USFS site but apparently you can't add an alternate after the permit is printed, and apparently the group leader printed it prematurely, hence the OP's dilemma.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/okawen/passes-permits/recreation/?cid=stelprdb5405903
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NacMacFeegle
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PostSat Aug 03, 2019 9:14 pm 
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Tom wrote:
Here are the rules per the USFS website.  It says you have to camp together (not hike or stay together at all times) and all members must carry a copy of the permit.  It also says you can have an alternate group leader. Not mentioned on the USFS site but apparently you can't add an alternate after the permit is printed, and apparently the group leader printed it prematurely, hence the OP's dilemma.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/okawen/passes-permits/recreation/?cid=stelprdb5405903

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anything in the rules saying that the group leader must actually go on the hike.

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olderthanIusedtobe
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PostSat Aug 03, 2019 9:44 pm 
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On several occasions the box that is supposed to contain the self issuing day use permits at the Colchuck trailhead has been empty upon my arrival.  I've gone anyway, haven't run into a Ranger on any of those occasions.  I do wonder how that conversation would go.  I can't see how they can ticket you for not having a permit if they didn't provide permits at the TH.
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