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reststep
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PostSat Aug 31, 2019 2:44 pm 
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U.S. Forest Service Briefing Paper about E-bikes

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd563344.pdf

Quote:
Consistent with 36 CFR 212.1, the Forest Service is managing e-bikes as motor vehicles.


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joker
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PostSat Aug 31, 2019 2:45 pm 
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Ski wrote:
The National Park Service, in its ebike policy wrote:
Park superintendents will retain the right to limit, restrict, or impose conditions of bicycle use and e-bike use in order to ensure visitor safety and resource protection.

I wouldn't get too excited about all of this right away.

Same here. As guilty as I am of having used the "slippery slope" argument more than once in my life, I'm prone to agreeing with this introductory paragraph from Wikipedia's article on the topic:

Quote:
A slippery slope argument (SSA), in logic, critical thinking, political rhetoric, and caselaw, is a logical fallacy[1] in which a party asserts that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant (usually negative) effect.[2] The core of the slippery slope argument is that a specific decision under debate is likely to result in unintended consequences. The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process that leads to the significant effect. This type of argument is sometimes used as a form of fearmongering, in which the probable consequences of a given action are exaggerated in an attempt to scare the audience. The fallacious sense of "slippery slope" is often used synonymously with continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes a discrete transition from category A to category B. In a non-fallacious sense, including use as a legal principle, a middle-ground possibility is acknowledged, and reasoning is provided for the likelihood of the predicted outcome.
Other idioms for the slippery slope argument are the thin end/edge of the wedge, the camel's nose in the tent, or If You Give a Mouse a Cookie.
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nordique
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PostSat Aug 31, 2019 4:44 pm 
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I am old enough to remember bike racer friends of mine--with whom I trained and raced--who paid more for their bikes than for their cars.  And I remember yelling at people on the paved trail to Marymoor who had some form of motorized assistance.  But I also remember coming back from long group training rides by way of the Sammamish Trail at our steady pace of about 25 mph--more exciting than racing on a weekend day!  Hiking seemed far safer.
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Pahoehoe
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PostSat Aug 31, 2019 5:25 pm 
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Tom wrote:
Oh, I know they are a thing.  I have a Luna X1 on pre-order and that's considered "affordable".  Typical cost for a capable eMTB is $5-10K and the majority are constrained to 350W to comply with european regs.

Where do you plan on riding that?
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joker
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PostSat Aug 31, 2019 6:46 pm 
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nordique wrote:
But I also remember coming back from long group training rides by way of the Sammamish Trail at our steady pace of about 25 mph--more exciting than racing on a weekend day!  Hiking seemed far safer.

Yeah. You guys. The speed limit has been posted 15mph since I've lived around here. I don't see a big deal about breaking it in uncrossed areas but...
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Tom
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PostSat Aug 31, 2019 7:00 pm 
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Pahoehoe, everywhere I ride my current e-bike. More interested in it because it's lightweight with full suspension and premium components. Not that interested in heavy overpowered e-bikes with cheap components or the overpriced name brand bikes castrated for the european market.
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RandyHiker
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PostSat Aug 31, 2019 7:04 pm 
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joker wrote:
nordique wrote:
But I also remember coming back from long group training rides by way of the Sammamish Trail at our steady pace of about 25 mph--more exciting than racing on a weekend day!  Hiking seemed far safer.

Yeah. You guys. The speed limit has been posted 15mph since I've lived around here. I don't see a big deal about breaking it in uncrossed areas but...

The most idiotic roadie "wannabe" behavior I've witnessed was when a knucklehead rear ended my then 5yo nephew at high speed on the Greenlake path near the Aquatheater.   To make it worse the ass tried to blame the 5 yo "he was weaving ".    My brother-in-law didn't suffer any of that BS:  "My attorney will be contacting you, I need to see your ID"  this shut him up.

Helmet mounted "dashcams" may soon be necessary for both road riding and trail riding and sadly walking.
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MyFootHurts
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PostSat Aug 31, 2019 7:42 pm 
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Took my e-bike out today on a closed road.
FS-46-somethingorother near Packwood is washed out 1.25 miles below the trailhead for Bluff Lake and Coal Creek Mountain.
Lugging my 60lbs Rad Rover down the creek and back up was almost more trouble than it was worth, but it saved 2.5 miles round trip of boring road walk and 500' of elevation gain.
I decided just out of spite to take my e-bike up the actual trail and beyond the wilderness sign. I rode my e-bike in the sacred Wilderness for about 300 yards until the trail got too steep.
E-bikes actually suck on trails lol.
But here's the strange thing-I rode it the wilderness and NOBODY GAVE A CHIT.
The trees didn't care. The birds didn't care. The plastic bags of dogchit didn't care. And the off-leash aggressive dogs didn't care. The used toilet paper on top of piles of human chit didn't care. The granola wrappers and orange peels didn't care. The trail was not harmed or eroded one bit by the presence of my infernal machine.
The people who cheat the system by parking a 100 feet down the road because they're too cheap to buy a NW Forest Pass didn't care (no pass was needed at this particular trailhead, but you get my drift).
If you're wondering what I'm ranting about, I recently woke up one morning and realized I've been living in a Clown World where nobody is expected to follow the rules but me.
You people keep provoking me about my ebike and I'm gonna start smoking just so I can smoke in non-smoking areas.
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Tom
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PostSat Aug 31, 2019 7:52 pm 
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Hehe nobody's falling for the troll yet.
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Brushwork
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PostSat Aug 31, 2019 9:00 pm 
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Seems to me a “motorized” bike defeats the purpose...  well, I know we don’t all have the same purpose....    I’ll stick to hiking, thank you very much. 

If you find a few miles of road too boring to hike, well then why the hell are you there?  (Referring to being in the mountains, not urban or rural).

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MyFootHurts
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PostSat Aug 31, 2019 9:27 pm 
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Brushwork wrote:
Seems to me a “motorized” bike defeats the purpose...  well, I know we don’t all have the same purpose....    I’ll stick to hiking, thank you very much. 

If you find a few miles of road too boring to hike, well then why the hell are you there?  (Referring to being in the mountains, not urban or rural).

Ok next time I'll park along Highway 12 and walk the forest roads all the way to the trailhead like you must do.
But you see, I can only walk so many miles in a day. If I bike the road that means I can get further up the trail.
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treeswarper
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PostSat Aug 31, 2019 10:03 pm 
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Another view, but I doubt any trails like this are on our federal lands unless they are stealth trails. 

Oh, and the fastest I've gone is 30mph but that was on my acoustical bike on a road.


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treeswarper
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PostSat Aug 31, 2019 10:20 pm 
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joker wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
are usually not allowed on National Park trails

This is part  of what moderates my reaction  to this  policy plan. I scanned my memory for places where I HAVE seen bikes allowed on NP trails, and it's precious few - the carriage paths at Acadia were what I came up with. And I'd be fine with ebikes there too,  based on having seen them in action on the more urban bike trails near where I live. If there are more wild and remote trails that are more along the lines of single track that allow bikes in NPs I'd be very curious  to know where they are.

I am thinking that those are places where ebikers have been told to get off the trails..  This is from reading posts made on ebike forums.

The Acadia park police kicked them off the trails and told them to ride on the roads with the cars.  The bikers did not feel comfortable on the roads.  All claimed to be riding at safe normal speeds on the trails.

The new bike I got is a type 1  (no throttle) doesn't look too much like an ebike as the battery is enclosed in the frame and the controls are tiny.  Being stealthy that way was part of the attraction because there are so many different rules depending on whatever jurisdiction you are in.

I am going to have to practice getting it started from a stop up hills without using a throttle.  That's what I use a throttle for on the Rad.

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Brian R
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PostSat Aug 31, 2019 10:25 pm 
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Can't resist.

I believe the state-by-state rules are driving the ebike market toward the following standards: Pedal-assist only, no throttle; 20mph limiter. In other words, if it has a throttle, it's a motor vehicle. There might be a wattage rule forming up as well.

My wife rides an ebike made by Bike Friday and loves it.  20x1.95 Maxxis micro-knobbies, even. We recently rode a long section of the John Wayne "Trail"--me on my traditional MTB, she on her ebike.  She set it at "3," or 60% assist, and we averaged 10-12mph for 60 miles. Her battery died at about 54 miles. She admits she would not have done the ride without the boost.

I have since come to find out that ebikes aren't allowed on the John Wayne Trail. Scoff. We saw at least two dozen riders who did not know or care she was getting a silent assist. Next week, I look forward to taking her along Westside Road to Klapatche Point and back. (After I return from Olympus via Queets Basin :-))
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Jeff
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PostSat Aug 31, 2019 10:39 pm 
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The type of person who requires motorized assistance is not going to be capable of handling a bicycle at 20mph on narrow hiking trails anyways.
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