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MtnGoat
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 10:27 am 
Pahoehoe wrote:
If it's not in a wilderness area, should be ok, right? Electric winches are quiet and dont spew exhaust
Electric winches are machines, and machines are not allowed for transport in wilderness areas. This isn't complicated. It's sure looking like your chief concern is the impact of ebikes upon your emotions if they are allowed in places other bikes are allowed. You can't make a cogent argument why machines which emit neither noise nor stink and are merely non muscle powered versions of the same machines you like, should't be allowed.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 10:37 am 
Pahoehoe wrote:
Why is it valid to blanket ban human powered pedal bikes from wilderness areas because some want a place free from "machines" but it's not valid to say an ebike has a motor so it's not non motorized.
Because the issues that previously came with motors do not exist for ebikes.
Pahoehoe wrote:
It's not the same as a human powered bike and it needs to be it's own user group and evaluated separately
We know that, and it is being evaluated separately...as you see in this thread. Just because you evaluate something 'separately' does not mean the end result of this evaluation cannot or should not sharing the trails.
Pahoehoe wrote:
Why is it valid for some user groups to have places free from "machines" but not valid for others to have places free from motors?
Because banning machines for transportation is an a value decision with a bright line that excludes all machines for transport, whereas the only reason for banning motors from places which allow mechanized travel on machines which make little or no noise and zero exhaust, appears very much to be the feelings you choose to have if the trails are shared with them.
Pahoehoe wrote:
Why is there no value in human power? Doing it yourself?
No one has made that argument. And sharing with ebikes doesn't stop you from feeling that way and choosing that value. Other folks should be able to choose to share the riding with stuff like this.. 20" Electric Snow Mountain Bicycle w- Removable Lithium Battery This high quality electric mountain bike turns e-bike riders into explorers and adventurers. I suspect the ad copy could be triggering because I can see the gatekeeping impulses present in your arguments.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Brian R
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 11:22 am 
When I ride my mountain bike (no motor) up Westside Road at MRNP, I regularly see NPS sport utility vehicles and/or their quads parked at Round Pass. To their credit, they once used them to transport materials to rebuild the patrol cabin at Lake George and fix the roof at St Andrews--but that work is long done. Now they are just on LE patrols, I think. In any event, I'm not sure why riding an ebike up Westside Road violates anybody's sense of fairness when we have a bureaucratic class following a completely different set of rules. I think of Animal Farm every time I see this.

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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 11:45 am 
^ Your putative "bureaucratic class" is using a motorized means of transportation up the Westside Road because it's most likely been determined to be "the minimum necessary for the administration" of the area - expecting NPS staff to walk all the way up there and back for regular patrols of the area most likely isn't a practical idea. For the same reasons, the National Park Service uses a Hughes 500 helicopter to ferry fisheries staff people up and down the rivers at Olympic National Park, far into "designated wilderness." As to
Brian R wrote:
"... why riding an ebike up Westside Road violates anybody's sense of fairness..."
(a) Some people just can't find enough stuff to complain about. (b) Some people think the "no mechanical transport" line in the Wilderness Act of 1964 applies to every square inch of National Park, National Forest, and/or Bureau of Lands Management real estate.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Pahoehoe
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 12:54 pm 
MtnGoat wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
If it's not in a wilderness area, should be ok, right? Electric winches are quiet and dont spew exhaust
Electric winches are machines, and machines are not allowed for transport in wilderness areas. This isn't complicated. It's sure looking like your chief concern is the impact of ebikes upon your emotions if they are allowed in places other bikes are allowed. You can't make a cogent argument why machines which emit neither noise nor stink and are merely non muscle powered versions of the same machines you like, should't be allowed.
Reading comprehension fail? On all non wilderness area climbs I should be able to use an electric winch or other electric aids to haul whatever I want (people and things) since that winch has no exhaust and is quiet. Or is climbing somehow more sacred than biking?

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treeswarper
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 1:04 pm 
BigBrunyon wrote:
Nothing worse than e-bike user egos! Thinking they're big and tough on those trails when they're not even powering it themselves!
A good example of a statement from someone who has not ridden an ebike. Or at least without a throttle. I power myself on my throttleless ebike. I just get some help. There's a reason why it is called pedal assist. You don't pedal, you don't go unless it is downhill. I power myself on the bike with a throttle. The more throttle and the higher the assist, the less time your battery will last. Battery is kinda important when it comes to ebikes, unless the last part is downhill. Or, you have a more bikey ebike that pedals fairly easy. There's always gotta be something to whine about. If no ebikes, it's regular bikes, horses, unleashed (even where it is quite legal) hounds, kids, scary looking men, unleashed horses, people who might look a bit different than the homogenous synthetic crowd, etc.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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MtnGoat
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 1:09 pm 
Pahoehoe wrote:
Reading comprehension fail? On all non wilderness area climbs I should be able to use an electric winch or other electric aids to haul whatever I want (people and things) since that winch has no exhaust and is quiet. Or is climbing somehow more sacred than biking?
Where is my reading comprehension 'fail'? If you're going to make accusations, back them up. Yes, I agree with your winch argument. If that's what you choose to value, go for it.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Randito
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 1:45 pm 
Pahoehoe wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
Do you think it would be ok for me to use an electric winch to pull me up a classic climb?
How do you plan on getting the winch or pulley to the top of the climb? In terms of respect such antics will be about as respected as Maestri using his steam powered drill to install a bolt ladder up Cerro Torre.
Maybe one guy that can climb could go up first and set things up. Then the rest of us without the skills and fitness could just get hauled up. If it's not in a wilderness area, should be ok, right? Electric winches are quiet and dont spew exhaust.
OK as legal to do so is only one dimension. Respected for your accomplishment is another matter. Riding a "century" on a bike powered by your own muscles is respectable accomplishment. Riding 100 miles on electric motorcycle requires less training and effort. Strange that you somehow think these are equivalent undertakings. In terms of a classic climb. The winch thing is a bizzaro argument. Half-Dome in Yosemite has a walk up route and also quite difficult rock climbing routes. Taking the walkup route or being winched to the summit get one to the summit, but it hardly an equivalent adventure.

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MtnGoat
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 2:04 pm 
From my perspective on P's arguments, what matters is his perception of the accomplishment and the idea that management of areas paid for by all, should be directed with respect to those feelings. For example how much of an accomplishment it was to do a ride based upon how it was run (ebike vs standard bike). After all, when the machines he wants managed separately do not make a noise or produce exhaust, feelings about the experience are all that remain as a basis for exclusions. Neither rider puts out exhaust on the trail, neither one makes noises carrying very far. Yet both can complete the ride, but one perhaps should not be allowed to because of how the interpreter feels about the accomplishment.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Randito
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 2:22 pm 
MtnGoat wrote:
Neither rider puts out exhaust on the trail, neither one makes noises carrying very far. Yet both can complete the ride, but one perhaps should not be allowed to because of how the interpreter feels about the accomplishment.
Exhaust and noise affect the subjective feelings of other trail users, that's why there are regulations. Other factors also affect the subjective feelings of other trail users as well. The way in which the DNR manages the Tiger mountain area is a prime example, trails and areas are delineated so there are some trails that are hiker only and some trails that are biker only (especially one way downhill trails) This allows hikers to stroll on the hiker only trails without needing to be at the ready to leap out of the way of rapidly descending rider. Biker only downhill trails allow riders to fully enjoy the descent in "flow state" without concern of colliding with hikers. It's not really about individual rights, but about creating a cooperative framework that provides a better experience overall for the greatest number of folks. I'm sure real estate developers would prefer that all of Tiger mtn be covered with subdivisions, is it fair to them that they are restricted from doing that by government regulations?

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MtnGoat
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 3:27 pm 
The emission of noise or exhaust can be validated empirically, unlike feelings. If feelings are going to be the basis for exclusions where the exclusions cannot be supported by empirical measurements of impact to others this needs to be upfront. The idea it's not about rights is inaccurate, since rights are the basis upon which any legal issues would rest. Further, the differences noted between hikers and cyclists usage do not exist in the bike vs ebike sphere. Similar ranges of mass, speed, etc. The chief objection really appears to be the desire to maintain some kind of purity in matters where ones own effort is inexplicably tied to someone else's. which is fine until its used as a basis for excluding other users whose ride differs only in power source.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Pahoehoe
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 6:50 pm 
Mas and speed between climbers and winch climbers is the same, too.

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Riverside Laker
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 7:10 pm 
I wonder if the same arguments were made in pubs when power steering and power windows became ubiquitous.

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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 7:34 pm 
1913 Hibbard Spencer Bartlett & Co. catalog Whip Stocks & Lashes ad pp 1370
1913 Hibbard Spencer Bartlett & Co. catalog Whip Stocks & Lashes ad pp 1370
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1913 Hibbard Spencer Bartlett & Co. Catalog Whip Sockets ad pp 1377

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Brian R
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 8:13 pm 
Ski wrote:
^ Your putative "bureaucratic class" is using a motorized means of transportation up the Westside Road because it's most likely been determined to be "the minimum necessary for the administration" of the area - expecting NPS staff to walk all the way up there and back for regular patrols of the area most likely isn't a practical idea. For the same reasons, the National Park Service uses a Hughes 500 helicopter to ferry fisheries staff people up and down the rivers at Olympic National Park, far into "designated wilderness." As to
Brian R wrote:
"... why riding an ebike up Westside Road violates anybody's sense of fairness..."
(a) Some people just can't find enough stuff to complain about. (b) Some people think the "no mechanical transport" line in the Wilderness Act of 1964 applies to every square inch of National Park, National Forest, and/or Bureau of Lands Management real estate.
Looks like we're similarly skeptical on these latter points. Re my bureaucratic class comments--and your response that NPS uses vehicles on WSR for necessary administration--I would just reiterate my belief that Westside Road should be reopened to private cars to Klapatche Point. And no, I don;t believe a helicopter should be used to move fisheries, or staff of any kind (except for rescues/emergencies) around national parks. Rules should be equally applied. Let them use horses.

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