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MyFootHurts
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MyFootHurts
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 2:31 pm 
Pahoehoe wrote:
MtnGoat wrote:
I don't think any class of recreationalist is more likely to pee in the pool concerning interactions than any other. The attempt to define ebikers as some kind of disproportional peeing hazard has more to do with enmity towards the form of recreation and the idea of sharing resources. What I don't get at all is the inexplicable idea that if someone else doesn't push the pedals as hard as the observer, that they somehow are ruining it for everyone who does.
The point is not to define ebikes as worse than other users, the point it to define them as different because they have a motor. Then, land managers can decide where and when its appropriate to allow them access.
Why are you so emotionally invested in keeping ebikes off trails? You're absolutely obsessed with this. It seems like a very strange cause to white knight.

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Logbear
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 2:33 pm 
Oh yea, I know Farragut is in Idaho. I'm still waiting for a e-mail reply to my question from them. I ran across the information from Bend, Ore, while searching for rules and regulations. So far all the rules and regulations I've found have the same bottom line. E-bikes and not non-motorized.

“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
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MultiUser
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 2:51 pm 
Logbear wrote:
Oh yea, I know Farragut is in Idaho. I'm still waiting for a e-mail reply to my question from them. I ran across the information from Bend, Ore, while searching for rules and regulations. So far all the rules and regulations I've found have the same bottom line. E-bikes and not non-motorized.
Except state parks in WA, where they recently, and in apparent secrecy, changed the policy to allow Class 1 and 3 and non-motorized singletrack that allows bicycles. By definition, allowing motors on trails designated as non-motorized.

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MtnGoat
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 2:53 pm 
MyFootHurts wrote:
Why are you so emotionally invested in keeping ebikes off trails? You're absolutely obsessed with this. It seems like a very strange cause to white knight.
because emotion drives the distinction when no empirical downside can be shown to exist.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Ski
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 3:26 pm 
mb wrote:
https://goodheartsolutions.com/2019/10/18/emtb-thoughts/
Very thoughtfully and carefully written. The author does point out something which I found interesting: There appears to be no real hard data when it comes to exactly what degree of damage is caused to trails by ebikes. I find his claim to be more than credible, considering that these are fairly new machines (in the larger context of trails and trail maintenance.) Given that, what evidence exists to support the claims of any increase (or decrease) in trail erosion caused by ebikes? Evidence. Not anecdote.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 4:18 pm 
Quote:
Lastly I will go back to my very first point, we all need to stop worrying about convincing the haters to not be haters, it is not productive – and you can never win.
Some content here in the thread demonstrates that IMO.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Tom
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 4:27 pm 
Pahoehoe wrote:
The bike I posted above weighs under 50lbs.
It doesn't weigh less than 50lbs. ZERO chance. LOL! Even with the smallest battery pack (pointless on that bike) they are fibbing. My Volton El Legs with lightweight 250W motor and small battery back is 47 lbs. Volton claims closer to 40 lbs.

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RodF
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 4:45 pm 
Another article: PEER Sues To Overturn Expanded E-Bike Access In National Parks They're quoted "We're concerned that once the camel's nose is under the tent that we may see the entire camel inside one day..." Sound familiar? I appreciate the reasonable perspectives above from MultiUser, Tom, Ski and others.

"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir "the wild is not the opposite of cultivated. It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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Pahoehoe
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 5:03 pm 
Tom wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
The bike I posted above weighs under 50lbs.
It doesn't weigh less than 50lbs. ZERO chance. LOL! Even with the smallest battery pack (pointless on that bike) they are fibbing. My Volton El Legs with lightweight 250W motor and small battery back is 47 lbs. Volton claims closer to 40 lbs.
That's the manufacturer's claims.

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Pahoehoe
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 5:05 pm 
MyFootHurts wrote:
Why are you so emotionally invested in keeping ebikes off trails? You're absolutely obsessed with this. It seems like a very strange cause to white knight.
I'm not. I'm invested in not having ebikes lumped into the same category as human powered bikes. Ebikes are motorized no matter how you try to say they arent, they are. They are their own user group and need to be treated as such when access decisions are made.

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Tom
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 5:29 pm 
Out of all the designated non-motorized trails that allow bikes, how many do you feel might be suitable for class 1 ebikes?

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Logbear
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 5:45 pm 
Here's what Backcountry Horsemen of California, and Backcountry Horsemen of America have to say as Plaintiffs in their lawsuit against the Forest Service. “We are disappointed that the rules for using trails in this wonderful natural area were changed behind closed doors without public participation. This is particularly disappointing for our members who are proud of the stewardship and care they bring to the non-motorized trails on public lands. “ “This move by the Forest Service would benefit the e-bike industry at the expense of the users that non-motorized trails are supposed to serve. The appeal of quiet recreation and the quality of wildlife habitat in California will suffer unless this decision is reversed.” “This decision sets the stage for motorizing America’s backcountry, which violates the principles and partnerships that we have worked so hard to secure over many years. We believe there is a place for motorized bikes, but nonmotorized trails – by definition -- are not the right place.”

“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
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MultiUser
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 5:53 pm 
Tom wrote:
Out of all the designated non-motorized trails that allow bikes, how many do you feel might be suitable for class 1 ebikes?
Of all the trails you feel might be suitable for Class 1, why would you not allow Class 2 or 3? Or beyond? Surely if 250W/750W/20mph is ok, than 300W/800W/22mph is a tiny difference. How much power is acceptable before nonmotorized becomes motorized? The real problem here is trying to use nonmotorized vs motorized as trail designations, when it should be more based on criteria like impact to the trail, or speed of travel vs other uses.

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Pahoehoe
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 5:56 pm 
Tom wrote:
Out of all the designated non-motorized trails that allow bikes, how many do you feel might be suitable for class 1 ebikes?
I'm not sure. I think access needs to be offered slowly as we see what their impact is, how technology developes and how the ebike community developes and what their cultural values are. Currently I think they should be allowed on most double track/fire roads and i do not have a problem with them on shuttle trails. If I thought they would follow rules I would suggest opening a few trails in areas such as tiger, galby, raging river to see how it plays out. Users have displayed an inability to follow rules so I'm in favor of waiting and seeing. I would definitely support allowing the ebike community to build some trails in established areas.

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MultiUser
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 6:01 pm 
Pahoehoe wrote:
If I thought they were follow rules I would suggest opening a few trails in areas such as tiger, galby, raging river to see how it plays out.
Galby is also private land, though subject to a publicly owned recreation easement, where the owners have chosen not allow ebikes. It is also widely disregarded from what I have heard from Bellingham riders. Some good listens: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/12-eric-brown/id1457798782?i=1000444807344 http://frontlinesmtb.com/2018/04/13/ep-39-the-emtb-part-4-panel-discussion/

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