Forum Index > Trail Talk > Electric bikes soon to be humming along national park trails
Previous :: Next Topic  
Author Message
RodF
Member
Member


Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 2499 | TRs
Location: Sequim WA
RodF
  Top

Member
PostTue Dec 10, 2019 3:45 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Another article: PEER Sues To Overturn Expanded E-Bike Access In National Parks

They're quoted "We're concerned that once the camel's nose is under the tent that we may see the entire camel inside one day..."  Sound familiar?

I appreciate the reasonable perspectives above from MultiUser, Tom, Ski and others.

--------------
"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated.  It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Pahoehoe
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 507 | TRs

Pahoehoe
  Top

Member
PostTue Dec 10, 2019 4:03 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Tom wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
The bike I posted above weighs under 50lbs.

It doesn't weigh less than 50lbs.  ZERO chance.  LOL!  Even with the smallest battery pack (pointless on that bike) they are fibbing.  My Volton El Legs with lightweight 250W motor and small battery back is 47 lbs.  Volton claims closer to 40 lbs.

That's the manufacturer's claims.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Pahoehoe
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 507 | TRs

Pahoehoe
  Top

Member
PostTue Dec 10, 2019 4:05 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
MyFootHurts wrote:
Why are you so emotionally invested in keeping ebikes off trails?
You're absolutely obsessed with this.
It seems like a very strange cause to white knight.

I'm not.  I'm invested in not having ebikes lumped into the same category as human powered bikes.

Ebikes are motorized no matter how you try to say they arent, they are.

They are their own user group and need to be treated as such when access decisions are made.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Tom
Admin



Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 16209 | TRs

Tom
  Top

Admin
PostTue Dec 10, 2019 4:29 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Out of all the designated non-motorized trails that allow bikes, how many do you feel might be suitable for class 1 ebikes?
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Logbear
Member
Member


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 272 | TRs
Location: Getchell. Wash
Logbear
  Top

Member
PostTue Dec 10, 2019 4:45 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Here's what Backcountry Horsemen of California, and Backcountry Horsemen of America have to say as Plaintiffs in their lawsuit against the Forest Service.

“We are disappointed that the rules for using trails in this wonderful natural area were changed behind closed doors without public participation. This is particularly disappointing for our members who are proud of the stewardship and care they bring to the non-motorized trails on public lands. “

“This move by the Forest Service would benefit the e-bike industry at the expense of the users that non-motorized trails are supposed to serve.  The appeal of quiet recreation and the quality of wildlife habitat in California will suffer unless this decision is reversed.”

“This decision sets the stage for motorizing America’s backcountry, which violates the principles and partnerships that we have worked so hard to secure over many years. We believe there is a place for motorized bikes, but nonmotorized trails – by definition -- are not the right place.”
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
MultiUser
Member
Member


Joined: 16 Feb 2011
Posts: 186 | TRs
Location: United States
MultiUser
  Top

Member
PostTue Dec 10, 2019 4:53 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Tom wrote:
Out of all the designated non-motorized trails that allow bikes, how many do you feel might be suitable for class 1 ebikes?

Of all the trails you feel might be suitable for Class 1, why would you not allow Class 2 or 3?  Or beyond?  Surely if 250W/750W/20mph is ok, than 300W/800W/22mph is a tiny difference.

How much power is acceptable before nonmotorized becomes motorized?

The real problem here is trying to use nonmotorized vs motorized as trail designations, when it should be more based on criteria like impact to the trail, or speed of travel vs other uses.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Pahoehoe
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 507 | TRs

Pahoehoe
  Top

Member
PostTue Dec 10, 2019 4:56 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Tom wrote:
Out of all the designated non-motorized trails that allow bikes, how many do you feel might be suitable for class 1 ebikes?

I'm not sure.

I think access needs to be offered slowly as we see what their impact is, how technology developes and how the ebike community developes and what their cultural values are.

Currently I think they should be allowed on most double track/fire roads and i do not have a problem with them on shuttle trails.

If I thought they would follow rules I would suggest opening a few trails in areas such as tiger, galby, raging river to see how it plays out.

Users have displayed an inability to follow rules so I'm in favor of waiting and seeing.

I would definitely support allowing the ebike community to build some trails in established areas.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
MultiUser
Member
Member


Joined: 16 Feb 2011
Posts: 186 | TRs
Location: United States
MultiUser
  Top

Member
PostTue Dec 10, 2019 5:01 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Pahoehoe wrote:
If I thought they were follow rules I would suggest opening a few trails in areas such as tiger, galby, raging river to see how it plays out.

Galby is also private land, though subject to a publicly owned recreation easement, where the owners have chosen not allow ebikes.  It is also widely disregarded from what I have heard from Bellingham riders.

Some good listens:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/12-eric-brown/id1457798782?i=1000444807344

http://frontlinesmtb.com/2018/04/13/ep-39-the-emtb-part-4-panel-discussion/
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
MtnGoat
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11439 | TRs
Location: Lyle, WA
MtnGoat
  Top

Member
PostTue Dec 10, 2019 5:06 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Pahoehoe wrote:
I'm not.  I'm invested in not having ebikes lumped into the same category as human powered bikes.

Ebikes are motorized no matter how you try to say they arent, they are.

They are their own user group and need to be treated as such when access decisions are made.

I haven't seen a single person in this discussion claim ebikes are not motorized, so I'm wondering who you're referring to.

--------------
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski
><((((°>



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 10300 | TRs
Location: tacoma
Ski
  Top

><((((°>
PostTue Dec 10, 2019 5:10 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
RodF wrote:
https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2019/12/peer-sues-overturn-expanded-e-bike-access-national-parks

rumpelstiltskin, commenting on the article cited above by Rod wrote:
The problem with this decision on E-Bikes is not whether it is or is not a good decision on E-Bikes.  This problem is far more important than that.  The problem here is that the manner in which this decision was made circumvented key elements of due process and the rule of law and circumventing key elements of due process or the rule of law sets a precedent that educated, literate, civilized Americans cannot afford to allow.

(* emphasis added *)

And therein lies the real issue: Decisions like this benefit only the lawyers who will do battle over this kind of stuff for the next decade at the US taxpayers expense.
Whether or not, in the end, ebikes are allowed or not allowed, is a minor issue when viewed in the larger context of what the current administration in Washington DC has managed to create in terms of administrative chaos and endless legal battles that will drag on for years.

--------------
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski
><((((°>



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 10300 | TRs
Location: tacoma
Ski
  Top

><((((°>
PostTue Dec 10, 2019 5:18 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Mike Murray, commenting on the article cited above by Rod wrote:
36 CFR Section 1.4 of the NPS general regulations states: "Bicycle means every device propelled solely by human power upon which a person or persons may ride on land, having one, two, or more wheels, except a manual wheelchair."

In other words:
The "governing by executive fiat" move on this was done in violation of the NPS's own regulations.

--------------
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Tom
Admin



Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 16209 | TRs

Tom
  Top

Admin
PostTue Dec 10, 2019 5:45 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
MultiUser wrote:
Tom wrote:
Out of all the designated non-motorized trails that allow bikes, how many do you feel might be suitable for class 1 ebikes?

Of all the trails you feel might be suitable for Class 1, why would you not allow Class 2 or 3?  Or beyond?  Surely if 250W/750W/20mph is ok, than 300W/800W/22mph is a tiny difference.

How much power is acceptable before nonmotorized becomes motorized?

The real problem here is trying to use nonmotorized vs motorized as trail designations, when it should be more based on criteria like impact to the trail, or speed of travel vs other uses.

I mentioned class 1 just because people get their knickers in a bunch re. throttle or higher speed limiters. Personally, I don't see much difference between class 1 and  2. One allows for throttle but I wouldn't say throttle makes class 2 any less suitable knowing how throttle is typically used on an e-bike.  And class 3 really isn't materially different than class 1 other than a speed limiter that kicks in at 28 mph. On trail I'm not sure the speed limiter really makes that much difference because you're not going to be wanting that assistance beyond 20 mph assuming you even get there. The key is the 750 watt limit which I think is reasonable - beyond that I think you get into a gray area. That's one thing I like about the NP memorandum is they didn't get too caught up in class 1 vs 3 and relied on the legal definition of ebike and the 750 watt limit. I understand why they mandated no throttle because they want to avoid bikes that are more akin to motorcycles than real bikes.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
MultiUser
Member
Member


Joined: 16 Feb 2011
Posts: 186 | TRs
Location: United States
MultiUser
  Top

Member
PostTue Dec 10, 2019 5:47 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Tom wrote:
MultiUser wrote:
Tom wrote:
Out of all the designated non-motorized trails that allow bikes, how many do you feel might be suitable for class 1 ebikes?

Of all the trails you feel might be suitable for Class 1, why would you not allow Class 2 or 3?  Or beyond?  Surely if 250W/750W/20mph is ok, than 300W/800W/22mph is a tiny difference.

How much power is acceptable before nonmotorized becomes motorized?

The real problem here is trying to use nonmotorized vs motorized as trail designations, when it should be more based on criteria like impact to the trail, or speed of travel vs other uses.

I mentioned class 1 just because people get their knickers in a bunch re. throttle or higher speed limiters. Personally, I don't see much difference between class 1 and  2. One allows for throttle but I wouldn't say throttle makes class 2 any less suitable knowing how throttle is typically used on an e-bike.  And class 3 really isn't materially different than class 1 other than a speed limiter that kicks in at 28 mph. On trail I'm not sure the speed limiter really makes that much difference because you're not going to be wanting that assistance beyond 20 mph. The key is the 750 watt limit which I think is reasonable - beyond that I think you get into a gray area. That's one thing I like about the national Parks memorandum is they didn't get to caught up in class 1 vs 3 and relied on the legal definition of ebike. I understand why they mandated no throttle because they want to avoid bikes that are more akin to motorcycles than real bikes.

Put another way - since impacts are similar, which trails currently open to hikers but not bikes would you open to bikes?
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Cyclopath
Faster than light



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 3489 | TRs
Location: Seattle
Cyclopath
  Top

Faster than light
PostTue Dec 10, 2019 5:52 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Pahoehoe wrote:
Tom wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
treeswarper wrote:
Anybody got an answer?  Or is this in the same category as those mysterious ebikes that can go 35mph uphills on trails?  I did hit 7mph up the steep hill today.  Only need 18mph improvement and by golly, I'll be ready for trails! biggrin.gif

If you don't think this can go 35 mph uphill there is no hope for you...


https://hpcbikes.com/collections/electric-bikes/products/scout-pro

You can get 3000w of power.

Looks no different than a class 1.  I know a guy that can make you any sticker you need to appear legal.

Nobody is going to get that bike to poach your precious MTB trails. It's for people with small appendages that want to go fast on pavement.  If they have $6K to blow on an eMTB they're going to invest in a legit name brand bike which is going to have a 250W nominal motor or they're going to get something like the Luna X1 which is also focused on being a legit eMTB with good geometry and lighter weight taking precedence over heavier bike with more powerful motor.  My X1 could barely hit 25 MPH on pavement.  Even if I had gotten the ludi controller for double the power it's just going to provide more low speed torque, not speed.  It's geared for trail use not for going fast.  Sure, you could gear it faster, but people aren't buying that bike to tweak it to go fast on MTB trails.

How do you know this?  Mountain bikers like to go fast.  Many mountain bikers also ride motos.  They like to go fast, too.  In Western Washington there isnt much for legal moto trails.

A fast ebike bridges a gap.  You might not like to go fast, but people like to go fast.  Plenty would spend the money for a real fast bike.

Also that fast bike I posted has good geometry and modern high end parts.   No reason not to choose it if you want more power.

Plenty of people have money to burn and want speed and power.

That's not a pavement bike, look at the tires.  Those knobs are made for dirt and mud.  Also look at the geometry of the bike itself, again, designed for trails.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Cyclopath
Faster than light



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 3489 | TRs
Location: Seattle
Cyclopath
  Top

Faster than light
PostTue Dec 10, 2019 5:53 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski wrote:
(a) Some people just can't find enough stuff to complain about.

I know, right?  "There are non-motorized places I can't take my motorized vehicle to!!"
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
  Display:     All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Forum Index > Trail Talk > Electric bikes soon to be humming along national park trails
  Happy Birthday johncla!
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
   Use Disclaimer Powered by phpBB Privacy Policy