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Tom
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 5:55 pm 
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When I think of typical hiking trails I can't think of many that would be suitable for mountain bikes. Just too steep and rocky. I don't think it's as giant as a leap of faith to identify bike trails might be suitable for e-bikes.
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Tom
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 6:16 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
Tom wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
treeswarper wrote:
Anybody got an answer?  Or is this in the same category as those mysterious ebikes that can go 35mph uphills on trails?  I did hit 7mph up the steep hill today.  Only need 18mph improvement and by golly, I'll be ready for trails! biggrin.gif

If you don't think this can go 35 mph uphill there is no hope for you...


https://hpcbikes.com/collections/electric-bikes/products/scout-pro

You can get 3000w of power.

Looks no different than a class 1.  I know a guy that can make you any sticker you need to appear legal.

Nobody is going to get that bike to poach your precious MTB trails. It's for people with small appendages that want to go fast on pavement.  If they have $6K to blow on an eMTB they're going to invest in a legit name brand bike which is going to have a 250W nominal motor or they're going to get something like the Luna X1 which is also focused on being a legit eMTB with good geometry and lighter weight taking precedence over heavier bike with more powerful motor.  My X1 could barely hit 25 MPH on pavement.  Even if I had gotten the ludi controller for double the power it's just going to provide more low speed torque, not speed.  It's geared for trail use not for going fast.  Sure, you could gear it faster, but people aren't buying that bike to tweak it to go fast on MTB trails.

How do you know this?  Mountain bikers like to go fast.  Many mountain bikers also ride motos.  They like to go fast, too.  In Western Washington there isnt much for legal moto trails.

A fast ebike bridges a gap.  You might not like to go fast, but people like to go fast.  Plenty would spend the money for a real fast bike.

Also that fast bike I posted has good geometry and modern high end parts.   No reason not to choose it if you want more power.

Plenty of people have money to burn and want speed and power.

That's not a pavement bike, look at the tires.  Those knobs are made for dirt and mud.  Also look at the geometry of the bike itself, again, designed for trails.

No it is not really designed for trails at least not in the sense you guys are talking about it being 3,000 watt, 45 mph, blazing up trails, weighing less than 50 lb and passing as a legit e-bike although there's no reason it couldn't pass if you put a limiter on it.  Go ahead and google their speed test video.  The video I found needed a fairly large battery pack on the 2000 watt test bike. The 3000 watt version would probably require a larger pack to accommodate 72 volts.  On the 2000 watt bike their 145 pound rider hit 40 miles an hour on flat pavement ducking down to minimize wind resistance. A legit eMTB with full suspension is going to run circles around that thing on trail. Just because you put mountain bike tires on a hardtail bike does not make it a mountain bike any more than a rad rover. But it makes for good fodder for people who have no clue about e-bikes. Pull up the comments at elektrek for that bike as well. Most consider that thing to be a joke.
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RandyHiker
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 6:16 pm 
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Tom wrote:
When I think of typical hiking trails I can't think of many that would be suitable for mountain bikes. Just too steep and rocky. I don't think it's as giant as a leap of faith to identify bike trails might be suitable for e-bikes.

Looping around to the OP -- the two trails within Mt Rainier NP that were opened to eBike usage by this order are the abandoned Carbon river road and the abandoned West Side road that had previously been open to automobile traffic in past decades until repeated storm/flood damage resulted in the NPS "converting" the road to a cyclist and hiker "trail" by not repairing it.

Anywho -- there are several USFS trails in and around Cle Elum that are open to both hikers and cyclists -- but the Cle Elum ranger district so far has not opened to eBikes  -- in fact the Okanagan-Wenatchee web page for mountain biking contains the following text:

Quote:
E-Bikes (with full electric motor power or pedal assist) are not allowed on trails designated non-motorized

So at least in these examples -- it doesn't seem to me that the NPS or USFS managers have acted particularly rashly to expand eBike usage wiley-nily.

Whether the Wilderness Watch lawsuit finds fault in the NPS process will be interesting -- it will also be interesting to see how effective this lawsuit is for WW in generating additional donations to support their mission -- controversy is usual is good for fund raising.
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 6:26 pm 
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Randy wrote:
"...it doesn't seem to me that the NPS or USFS managers have acted particularly rashly to expand eBike usage wiley-nily..."

No, they did not.
And why would they?
They are working at the local level and hear the local noise. They're not in the bubble of Washington DC, completely disconnected from the reality of the real world.

I cannot imagine the current Superintendents at either Olympic or Mt. Rainier National Parks going any farther than they have already by allowing ebikes anywhere but where they've already allowed bicycles - the other trails within those two parks are, for the most part, simply not suitable for wheeled vehicles.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Cyclopath
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 6:32 pm 
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Tom wrote:
When I think of typical hiking trails I can't think of many that would be suitable for mountain bikes. Just too steep and rocky. I don't think it's as giant as a leap of faith to identify bike trails might be suitable for e-bikes.

Are you familiar with the Cutthroat Pass and Angles Staircase trails?  Those are both great fun on MTBs and cherished by cyclists.  They're steep and rocky, that doesn't make trails unsuitable, it just requires care.  I've hiked on a lot of trails that would be great fun on a bike, except that bikes aren't allowed.
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 6:32 pm 
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The hpc bike linked appears to possibly be a rebadged Ventana Wolframe frame, of the 'all mountain hardtail' category. http://www.ventanausa.com/wolfram/  Don't knock what a hardtail can do.  Proper geometry is far more important than rear suspension.  If that is indeed a Wolfram, I'm sure its plenty capable for local trails - which are also steep, rocky, and sometimes narrow.
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Tom
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 6:55 pm 
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I'm not knocking what a hardtail can do. I doubt it's a rebadged frame since they would need a specific mold to accommodate the motor. The Chinese are pretty good at replicating and I would venture to guess they are using a Chinese copycat but molding the frame themselves in the US, throwing on a Bafang ultra motor made in China and calling it a US built bike.
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Logbear
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 6:59 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
Whether the Wilderness Watch lawsuit finds fault in the NPS process will be interesting -- it will also be interesting to see how effective this lawsuit is for WW in generating additional donations to support their mission -- controversy is usual is good for fund raising.

Are you referring to the Wilderness Society?  They are the group involved with the Backcountry Horsemen,  the Western Environmental Law Center, and the lawsuit in California.

I can't find anything from Wilderness Watch regarding E-bikes.  If someone was proposing allowing e-bikes in Wilderness Areas I imagine they would get involved.
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Pahoehoe
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 7:17 pm 
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Tom wrote:
When I think of typical hiking trails I can't think of many that would be suitable for mountain bikes. Just too steep and rocky. I don't think it's as giant as a leap of faith to identify bike trails might be suitable for e-bikes.

This here shows your complete lack of understanding and it's probably why you dont believe ebikes have a huge potential for issues.

Mountain bikers ride down things that are difficult to walk down.

Of course what comes down has to get up, but many (most?) have no problems with hike a bike sections for a fun descent.

There are TONS of places bikes arent allowed where they would be great fun and not really cause any more impact than the current users do.

I'm actually a little different than many mountain bikers in that I pretty fully support the wilderness bike ban.

I would support allowing for some corridors of bike access to connect trail systems and create long distance/ bike packing routes, but as a general rule, I get it.

No bikes in Wilderness is pretty ok with me.
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Tom
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 7:24 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
Are you familiar with the Cutthroat Pass and Angles Staircase trails?  Those are both great fun on MTBs and cherished by cyclists.  They're steep and rocky, that doesn't make trails unsuitable, it just requires care.  I've hiked on a lot of trails that would be great fun on a bike, except that bikes aren't allowed.

I haven't been on either of those trails.  I'm sure there are trails that could be mountain biked and would be great fun.  There may be valid reasons why they are not allowed. Perhaps more valid then those used to exclude e-bikes. I was just wondering if the e-bike haters could come up with any more trails where it might make sense than evergreen has advocated for in the past year. Which apparently is 1.
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RandyHiker
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 7:25 pm 
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Logbear wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
Whether the Wilderness Watch lawsuit finds fault in the NPS process will be interesting -- it will also be interesting to see how effective this lawsuit is for WW in generating additional donations to support their mission -- controversy is usual is good for fund raising.

Are you referring to the Wilderness Society?  They are the group involved with the Backcountry Horsemen,  the Western Environmental Law Center, and the lawsuit in California.

I can't find anything from Wilderness Watch regarding E-bikes.  If someone was proposing allowing e-bikes in Wilderness Areas I imagine they would get involved.

Did you bother to read article linked by someone else earlier in the thread?

Quote:
The PEER lawsuit (attached below), which was joined by Wilderness Watch, the Marin Conservation League, and the Environmental Action Committee of West Marin, challenges the process Bernhardt, Smith, and Vela followed in expanding the motorized access 
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 7:26 pm 
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Tom wrote:
I'm not knocking what a hardtail can do. I doubt it's a rebadged frame since they would need a specific mold to accommodate the motor. The Chinese are pretty good at replicating and I would venture to guess they are using a Chinese copycat but molding the frame themselves in the US, throwing on a Bafang ultra motor made in China and calling it a US built bike.

Please share more of your bike knowledge.

”The Scout is our first USA designed, engineered and hand welded hardtail plus size frame. The frame itself is proudly engineered, mitered, hand welded, heat treated, aged and powder coated in the United States.”
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Tom
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 7:33 pm 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
Tom wrote:
When I think of typical hiking trails I can't think of many that would be suitable for mountain bikes. Just too steep and rocky. I don't think it's as giant as a leap of faith to identify bike trails might be suitable for e-bikes.

This here shows your complete lack of understanding and it's probably why you dont believe ebikes have a huge potential for issues.

Mountain bikers ride down things that are difficult to walk down.

Of course what comes down has to get up, but many (most?) have no problems with hike a bike sections for a fun descent.

There are TONS of places bikes arent allowed where they would be great fun and not really cause any more impact than the current users do.

I'm actually a little different than many mountain bikers in that I pretty fully support the wilderness bike ban.

I would support allowing for some corridors of bike access to connect trail systems and create long distance/ bike packing routes, but as a general rule, I get it.

No bikes in Wilderness is pretty ok with me.

That's funny, I recall you were advocating that bikes should be allowed in wilderness. Maybe I'm confusing you with someone else. But regardless, perhaps you can explain why you think e-bikes create such a huge conflict in the example above where bikes are going down technical terrain. You don't believe that e-bikes can go down the same technical terrain?
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 8:21 pm 
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Tom wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
Tom wrote:
When I think of typical hiking trails I can't think of many that would be suitable for mountain bikes. Just too steep and rocky. I don't think it's as giant as a leap of faith to identify bike trails might be suitable for e-bikes.

This here shows your complete lack of understanding and it's probably why you dont believe ebikes have a huge potential for issues.

Mountain bikers ride down things that are difficult to walk down.

Of course what comes down has to get up, but many (most?) have no problems with hike a bike sections for a fun descent.

There are TONS of places bikes arent allowed where they would be great fun and not really cause any more impact than the current users do.

I'm actually a little different than many mountain bikers in that I pretty fully support the wilderness bike ban.

I would support allowing for some corridors of bike access to connect trail systems and create long distance/ bike packing routes, but as a general rule, I get it.

No bikes in Wilderness is pretty ok with me.

That's funny, I recall you were advocating that bikes should be allowed in wilderness. Maybe I'm confusing you with someone else. But regardless, perhaps you can explain why you think e-bikes create such a huge conflict in the example above where bikes are going down technical terrain. You don't believe that e-bikes can go down the same technical terrain?

I may have drawn a comparison with not allowing mechanized travel (which doesnt nessicarily cause more obvious impact) to not allowing motorized travel, which also has more nuanced impacts.

I dont see ebikes as causing issues on the downhill sections because those are gravity driven.  If you read back, you will see I said I didnt have a problem with ebikes on shuttle trails.

My biggest concern with ebikes is there are all these concerns coming from all different directions and we dont really know what it will look like in 5 years or 10 years if they are given free reign on all mountain bike trails.

They need to be classified as their own user group and conditionally allowed access to small areas/and or build new areas as we all see how it plays out.

For what it's worth, I am most worried about them on close in, crowded and heavily used systems versus bigger areas that less people use.

I also honestly think people like treeswarmer wouldnt be a problem, and its unfortunate that some ruin it for others, but it's kinda like motos.

I would support way more moto trails if riders would stay on them, but the group as a whole have proven that enough of them can't, that the destruction is huge.

The mountain biking community has worked really hard for it's current position and trust the community has in us in trail building, trail sharing and stewardship.  I dont think it's fair to just legislate another user group into ours.

Let them earn their place.
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 8:59 pm 
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I try to care about this,
but with all else going om
It seems like a tiny mess
A first world problem

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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