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MultiUser
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 7:32 pm 
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The hpc bike linked appears to possibly be a rebadged Ventana Wolframe frame, of the 'all mountain hardtail' category. http://www.ventanausa.com/wolfram/  Don't knock what a hardtail can do.  Proper geometry is far more important than rear suspension.  If that is indeed a Wolfram, I'm sure its plenty capable for local trails - which are also steep, rocky, and sometimes narrow.
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 7:55 pm 
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I'm not knocking what a hardtail can do. I doubt it's a rebadged frame since they would need a specific mold to accommodate the motor. The Chinese are pretty good at replicating and I would venture to guess they are using a Chinese copycat but molding the frame themselves in the US, throwing on a Bafang ultra motor made in China and calling it a US built bike.
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 7:59 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
Whether the Wilderness Watch lawsuit finds fault in the NPS process will be interesting -- it will also be interesting to see how effective this lawsuit is for WW in generating additional donations to support their mission -- controversy is usual is good for fund raising.

Are you referring to the Wilderness Society?  They are the group involved with the Backcountry Horsemen,  the Western Environmental Law Center, and the lawsuit in California.

I can't find anything from Wilderness Watch regarding E-bikes.  If someone was proposing allowing e-bikes in Wilderness Areas I imagine they would get involved.
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 8:17 pm 
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Tom wrote:
When I think of typical hiking trails I can't think of many that would be suitable for mountain bikes. Just too steep and rocky. I don't think it's as giant as a leap of faith to identify bike trails might be suitable for e-bikes.

This here shows your complete lack of understanding and it's probably why you dont believe ebikes have a huge potential for issues.

Mountain bikers ride down things that are difficult to walk down.

Of course what comes down has to get up, but many (most?) have no problems with hike a bike sections for a fun descent.

There are TONS of places bikes arent allowed where they would be great fun and not really cause any more impact than the current users do.

I'm actually a little different than many mountain bikers in that I pretty fully support the wilderness bike ban.

I would support allowing for some corridors of bike access to connect trail systems and create long distance/ bike packing routes, but as a general rule, I get it.

No bikes in Wilderness is pretty ok with me.
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Tom
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 8:24 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
Are you familiar with the Cutthroat Pass and Angles Staircase trails?  Those are both great fun on MTBs and cherished by cyclists.  They're steep and rocky, that doesn't make trails unsuitable, it just requires care.  I've hiked on a lot of trails that would be great fun on a bike, except that bikes aren't allowed.

I haven't been on either of those trails.  I'm sure there are trails that could be mountain biked and would be great fun.  There may be valid reasons why they are not allowed. Perhaps more valid then those used to exclude e-bikes. I was just wondering if the e-bike haters could come up with any more trails where it might make sense than evergreen has advocated for in the past year. Which apparently is 1.
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 8:25 pm 
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Logbear wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
Whether the Wilderness Watch lawsuit finds fault in the NPS process will be interesting -- it will also be interesting to see how effective this lawsuit is for WW in generating additional donations to support their mission -- controversy is usual is good for fund raising.

Are you referring to the Wilderness Society?  They are the group involved with the Backcountry Horsemen,  the Western Environmental Law Center, and the lawsuit in California.

I can't find anything from Wilderness Watch regarding E-bikes.  If someone was proposing allowing e-bikes in Wilderness Areas I imagine they would get involved.

Did you bother to read article linked by someone else earlier in the thread?

Quote:
The PEER lawsuit (attached below), which was joined by Wilderness Watch, the Marin Conservation League, and the Environmental Action Committee of West Marin, challenges the process Bernhardt, Smith, and Vela followed in expanding the motorized access 
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 8:26 pm 
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Tom wrote:
I'm not knocking what a hardtail can do. I doubt it's a rebadged frame since they would need a specific mold to accommodate the motor. The Chinese are pretty good at replicating and I would venture to guess they are using a Chinese copycat but molding the frame themselves in the US, throwing on a Bafang ultra motor made in China and calling it a US built bike.

Please share more of your bike knowledge.

”The Scout is our first USA designed, engineered and hand welded hardtail plus size frame. The frame itself is proudly engineered, mitered, hand welded, heat treated, aged and powder coated in the United States.”
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 8:33 pm 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
Tom wrote:
When I think of typical hiking trails I can't think of many that would be suitable for mountain bikes. Just too steep and rocky. I don't think it's as giant as a leap of faith to identify bike trails might be suitable for e-bikes.

This here shows your complete lack of understanding and it's probably why you dont believe ebikes have a huge potential for issues.

Mountain bikers ride down things that are difficult to walk down.

Of course what comes down has to get up, but many (most?) have no problems with hike a bike sections for a fun descent.

There are TONS of places bikes arent allowed where they would be great fun and not really cause any more impact than the current users do.

I'm actually a little different than many mountain bikers in that I pretty fully support the wilderness bike ban.

I would support allowing for some corridors of bike access to connect trail systems and create long distance/ bike packing routes, but as a general rule, I get it.

No bikes in Wilderness is pretty ok with me.

That's funny, I recall you were advocating that bikes should be allowed in wilderness. Maybe I'm confusing you with someone else. But regardless, perhaps you can explain why you think e-bikes create such a huge conflict in the example above where bikes are going down technical terrain. You don't believe that e-bikes can go down the same technical terrain?
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 9:21 pm 
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Tom wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
Tom wrote:
When I think of typical hiking trails I can't think of many that would be suitable for mountain bikes. Just too steep and rocky. I don't think it's as giant as a leap of faith to identify bike trails might be suitable for e-bikes.

This here shows your complete lack of understanding and it's probably why you dont believe ebikes have a huge potential for issues.

Mountain bikers ride down things that are difficult to walk down.

Of course what comes down has to get up, but many (most?) have no problems with hike a bike sections for a fun descent.

There are TONS of places bikes arent allowed where they would be great fun and not really cause any more impact than the current users do.

I'm actually a little different than many mountain bikers in that I pretty fully support the wilderness bike ban.

I would support allowing for some corridors of bike access to connect trail systems and create long distance/ bike packing routes, but as a general rule, I get it.

No bikes in Wilderness is pretty ok with me.

That's funny, I recall you were advocating that bikes should be allowed in wilderness. Maybe I'm confusing you with someone else. But regardless, perhaps you can explain why you think e-bikes create such a huge conflict in the example above where bikes are going down technical terrain. You don't believe that e-bikes can go down the same technical terrain?

I may have drawn a comparison with not allowing mechanized travel (which doesnt nessicarily cause more obvious impact) to not allowing motorized travel, which also has more nuanced impacts.

I dont see ebikes as causing issues on the downhill sections because those are gravity driven.  If you read back, you will see I said I didnt have a problem with ebikes on shuttle trails.

My biggest concern with ebikes is there are all these concerns coming from all different directions and we dont really know what it will look like in 5 years or 10 years if they are given free reign on all mountain bike trails.

They need to be classified as their own user group and conditionally allowed access to small areas/and or build new areas as we all see how it plays out.

For what it's worth, I am most worried about them on close in, crowded and heavily used systems versus bigger areas that less people use.

I also honestly think people like treeswarmer wouldnt be a problem, and its unfortunate that some ruin it for others, but it's kinda like motos.

I would support way more moto trails if riders would stay on them, but the group as a whole have proven that enough of them can't, that the destruction is huge.

The mountain biking community has worked really hard for it's current position and trust the community has in us in trail building, trail sharing and stewardship.  I dont think it's fair to just legislate another user group into ours.

Let them earn their place.
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 9:59 pm 
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I try to care about this,
but with all else going om
It seems like a tiny mess
A first world problem

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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RumiDude
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 10:05 pm 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
I try to care about this,
but with all else going om
It seems like a tiny mess
A first world problem

And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear
You shout and no one seems to hear
And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon

Rumi    <~~~~~~brain damage

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 10:15 pm 
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You can run
and you can run
but you can never
catch the setting sun

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Tom
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 10:15 pm 
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MultiUser wrote:
Tom wrote:
I'm not knocking what a hardtail can do. I doubt it's a rebadged frame since they would need a specific mold to accommodate the motor. The Chinese are pretty good at replicating and I would venture to guess they are using a Chinese copycat but molding the frame themselves in the US, throwing on a Bafang ultra motor made in China and calling it a US built bike.

Please share more of your bike knowledge.

”The Scout is our first USA designed, engineered and hand welded hardtail plus size frame. The frame itself is proudly engineered, mitered, hand welded, heat treated, aged and powder coated in the United States.”

My bike knowledge?  I don't profess to be an expert.  I've been following e-bikes for a while and am familiar with the various Bafang mid-drive motors.  There are quite a few bikes out there with the Ultra motor, mostly imported bikes from China.  I would just buy from FREY in China if I wanted a bike with that motor and cut out the middleman.  There is nothing unique about the HPC Scout.  Just a marketing stunt to sell an overpriced bike you could get for half the cost elsewhere.

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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 10:16 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
Did you bother to read article linked by someone else earlier in the thread?

Yes I did read the article, but perhaps my reading skills aren't what they used to be.
Thank you for helping me out.

I don't support any wilderness group getting involved, since this e-bike issue doesn't, or at least shouldn't, involve Wilderness Areas.

If Wilderness Watch is hoping to generate donations because of this action, they should at least put something on their website.  I couldn't find anything.  But I might have missed something.
The Wilderness Society has their lawsuit on their newsroom page.  Very easy to find.

While I support the Backcountry Horsemen of California,  and Backcountry Horsemen of America's involvement in this issue, I question why the Wilderness Society is involved.
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 10:50 pm 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
No bikes in Wilderness is pretty ok with me.

So exactly where and by whom has it been suggested that bikes (or ebikes) be allowed in Wilderness areas?

Please cite examples.

Waiting.

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"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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