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Pahoehoe
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 8:20 pm 
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FiveNines wrote:
MtnGoat wrote:
Tom wrote:
If Jimmy gets a MTB he's paid his dues by default?  But if Jimmy gets an e-MTB he hasn't paid his dues by default?

Good catch

Tom.  I think that's a rather simplistic view of Pahoehoe's arguments.  Given her high post volume, I'm surprised that she did not take the opportunity to articulate them better.  Sure, MtnGoat can be satisfied w/a weak rhetorical take, but at the risk of speaking inaccurately for her, I'd like to try to dig a little deeper.

MTBs have worked and volunteered a long time for the access they have.  Going to land use meetings.  Doing politics.  Making deals.  Making friends w/other groups.  Forging a seat at the table.  At the same time MTBs have backed up their politics with work in the field.  Lots of new trails all over the state/country built by evergreens or other clubs.  Volunteer days constructing and maintaining trail networks.  In western washington the last 5 years have been a golden era of access for MTBs and compromise with other user groups.  It took more than 20 years of prior effort to get there. These are the dues.

eMTBs are newer on the scene.  Lots of other user groups at the table are concerned about them.  They do not have a reputation in land use / access politics yet.  eMTB organized volunteer lobby or labor groups don't exist yet.  They are gaining a bad reputation on trails (pahoehoe story, horsemen).  Plus they have a motor.  They are not MTBs.  They have not paid their dues.

Horseys paid their dues in the 60s.  Creation of Wilderness Act.  They are grandfathered in regardless of present damage or impact.  But they also keep paying their dues in the same ways described above for MTB.  Therefore, they get to have a seat at the table. 

If Jimmy gets a bike, he's choosing to join a club that has paid it's dues.  If his folks get him an eMTB, they're giving Jimmy an opportunity to pay his dues, for himself and his hobby.  To be a pioneer.  Which he could do.  Or he could poach.  Or junk the eMTB, get a horse, and join a club with dues already paid in full.  That's what's super cool about america, informed choice!


My own opinion.  MTBs worked super hard to overcome the Manning Legacy in the I90 corridor.  A lot of them are pretty scared they're going to lose their access and goodwill due to being lumped in with eMTBs by other land users who don't know, or care, about the difference.

Thank you for articulating this so well.

This is why I do not want ebikes lumped in as mountain bikes.

Leave them separate, give them a bit of access and see how it goes.

I'm not anti ebike, I'm anti lumping ebikes with mountain bikes.
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MultiUser
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 8:23 pm 
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Ski wrote:
FiveNines wrote:
"Tom....

Well said, sir.

Sounds like the e-bike manufacturers need to take the initiative and get organized and put forth the same sort of efforts we've seen from EMBA.

They will also, as does the regular MTB community, step up and take a more assertive position when it comes to the sort of activities described in the articles and the video that treeswarper cited above.

Based on past experiences, it's unlikely we'll see ebike makers doing work similar to EMBA or supporting EMBA.  Thus far, they have opted to support People for Bikes, and push for legislative entry to trails, instead of building goodwill on the ground with land managers, the way local mtb groups have done for years.  EMBA gets minimal support from traditional bike makers as well.

With very few exceptions, the brands seem far more concerned with selling bikes than with ensuring their customers have trail access to ride them.
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Pahoehoe
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 8:25 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
If Jimmy gets a horse hes paid is dues by default?  But if Jimmy gets a bike he hasnt paid his dues by default?

You're the one making the 'paid their dues' argument, therefore you're the one who needs to defend it.

Questioning a question to evade answering it, is not an answer.

Actually I was responding to your reasoning for allowing horses in the wilderness but not bikes even though horses leave a huge impact when you keep saying ebikes should be allowed in non motorized areas because you claim they dont have a bigger impact than human powered bikes.
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Pahoehoe
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 8:27 pm 
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MultiUser wrote:
Ski wrote:
FiveNines wrote:
"Tom....

Well said, sir.

Sounds like the e-bike manufacturers need to take the initiative and get organized and put forth the same sort of efforts we've seen from EMBA.

They will also, as does the regular MTB community, step up and take a more assertive position when it comes to the sort of activities described in the articles and the video that treeswarper cited above.

Based on past experiences, it's unlikely we'll see ebike makers doing work similar to EMBA or supporting EMBA.  Thus far, they have opted to support People for Bikes, and push for legislative entry to trails, instead of building goodwill on the ground with land managers, the way local mtb groups have done for years.  EMBA gets minimal support from traditional bike makers as well.

With very few exceptions, the brands seem far more concerned with selling bikes than with ensuring their customers have trail access to ride them.

Mostly, as far as in industry support, it comes from your local bike shop.

Support them, please.
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RandyHiker
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 8:36 pm 
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Logbear wrote:
I don't keep up on this kind of political intrigue, so can anyone tell me if this bill is dead or alive.  It's been a year since it was introduced.

H.R.7367 - To designate a peak in the State of Washington as "Mount Cleator".

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/7367/text?r=35&s=8

Bill are only "dead dead dead"  the committee votes to kill them or if they somehow got out of committee and were defeated in a floor vote.  The later is rare as bill don't typically get approved by committees until success of a floor vote is likely. 

Bills that don't get out of committee may at some later date be reconsidered -- but only if a representative on the committee takes action.
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neek
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 8:41 pm 
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Ha!  I have a picture taken from Mt. Cleator hanging on my wall.  Hope that bill doesn't die, or I'll have to take it down.
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Logbear
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 8:59 pm 
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From what I can tell, neither...

H.R.1349 - To amend the Wilderness Act to ensure that the use of bicycles, wheelchairs, strollers, and game carts is not prohibited in Wilderness Areas, and for other purposes.

or

H.R.7367 - To designate a peak in the State of Washington as "Mount Cleator".

...has had any vote to kill them.

Therefore...

Bills that don't get out of committee may at some later date be reconsidered -- but only if a representative on the committee takes action.

Both of these bills are listed as... "Introduced"
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Tom
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:31 pm 
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NPS says all Jimmy needs to do is make sure his e-bike motor is 750W nominal (or less), use pedals (only) to activate motorized assist, and only ride where bikes can go (unless deemed inappropriate for e-bike use).  NPS doesn't say Jimmy can ride where bikes aren't allowed because he paid his dues.  NPS doesn't say Jimmy can ride his e-bike with throttle because he paid his dues.  NPS doesn't say Jimmy can have a 1000W motor because he paid his dues.  NPS doesn't say Jimmy can ride on bike trails the park superintendent deemed non-suitable for e-bikes because he paid his dues.  NPS doesn't say the you must pay your dues argument is bullsh##.  I do though.
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Pahoehoe
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:37 pm 
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NPS doesnt know Jimmy switched out the stickers so his over power and over speed ebike doesnt look any different from anyone elses legal class 1 bikes.

NPS also doesnt know that the lever Jimmy says is for his dropper is actually the throttle.

Too bad for grandma.  It wasnt a reindeer that ran her over.

It was Jimmy on his HPC scout Pro ebike with motor upgrade.
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RumiDude
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:39 pm 
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I am pretty sure that any bill which is unacted upon in a particular Congress is technically dead. a new Congress is elected every two years. The current Congress is the 116th Congress.  Of course any member could reintroduce the same bill at any time in a later Congress.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Tom
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:42 pm 
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Well, it that's the best argument you have to have to deny Jimmy legally riding his bike then I suppose you will just keep coming up with arguments like Jimmy must pay his dues.
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Logbear
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 pm 
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I'm starting to rethink this bike/e-bike/horse/wilderness thing.  Seriously.

I can think of a great potential bike trip from South Lake to North Lake in the Sierra.  55 miles.  9400' of gain and loss.  It is in a Wilderness Area, but the trail is maintained for stock, so bikes shouldn't have a problem.   Maybe they could allow bikes on a trial basis.  Would the 55 miles and 9400' of gain/loss be possible on an EMTB?  If not the whole loop, round trip to Bishop Pass (20 miles), RT to Piute Pass (10 miles).

I can imagine sitting at Dusy Basin watching the sunset as a silent bike, or several bikes, go by on the nearby trail.  I don't think I'd even notice.

I was at Bishop Pass once back in 1972, when a pack train went by.  With all the talking, horse noises, hoofs hitting rocks, etc.,  I couldn't ignore it if I wanted to. 

Don't get me wrong.  I liked seeing the pack train.  It was very...nostalgic.  Romantic.  I don't know what word to use.  It was like the old days.

Now I see a family of four deciding between a 4 day horse pack trip that would cost about $8,000, or a couple of e-bikes for the kids.    One 4 day trip (with no cell service), or lots of trips.  I would imagine this is a concern for pack outfitters.  Maybe the pack stations could rent EMTB's.

The quota system in the Inyo National Forest is very extensive, but it's just for overnight trips.  With a quota of 51 people per day, the Bishop Pass trail doesn't have much solitude.    Day use is controlled by how far you're willing to park from the trailhead.  Would more people opt for a day trip on a bike instead of overnight.  That's less impact.  When I started hiking in the Sierra's in 1968, the back-country was trashed.  Literally. I think everyone back then ate VanDCamp Beans, Spam, and beer, and left the empty's. Somewhere I have a picture of a huge pile of plastic bags full of garbage at the South Lake parking lot.  As a Boy Scout project, I handed out plastic bags to backpackers and asked them to bring them back full of trash.  Over the days the pile got bigger and bigger.  There isn't much if any trash in the back-country these days.   Just lots of people. 

For Washington, would the Enchantment Lakes trail be ride-able?  How about Spider Meadows?  Wouldn't any stock suitable trail be suitable for bikes?

I'm still having a hard time accepting the idea of bikes in the wilderness.  But I have adapted from... map and compass to GPS.  Wood fire to JetBoil.  Kelty frame to internal frame.  Cotton Ventile to Gortex.  The list goes on.

But before anyone thinks I've totally lost my mind, I draw the line with motorcycles.  They are just plain noisy and stinky.  I know.  I have Honda CT110.

To do future adaptation list:  CT110 to EMTB
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Brian R
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 11:35 pm 
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FiveNines wrote:
MTBs have worked and volunteered a long time for the access they have.  Going to land use meetings.  Doing politics.  Making deals.  Making friends w/other groups.  Forging a seat at the table.  At the same time MTBs have backed up their politics with work in the field.  Lots of new trails all over the state/country built by evergreens or other clubs.  Volunteer days constructing and maintaining trail networks.  In western washington the last 5 years have been a golden era of access for MTBs and compromise with other user groups.  It took more than 20 years of prior effort to get there. These are the dues.

Horseys paid their dues in the 60s.  Creation of Wilderness Act.  They are grandfathered in regardless of present damage or impact.  But they also keep paying their dues in the same ways described above for MTB.  Therefore, they get to have a seat at the table.

If Jimmy gets a bike, he's choosing to join a club that has paid it's dues.  If his folks get him an eMTB, they're giving Jimmy an opportunity to pay his dues, for himself and his hobby.  To be a pioneer.  Which he could do.  Or he could poach.  Or junk the eMTB, get a horse, and join a club with dues already paid in full.  That's what's super cool about america, informed choice!


My own opinion.  MTBs worked super hard to overcome the Manning Legacy in the I90 corridor.  A lot of them are pretty scared they're going to lose their access and goodwill due to being lumped in with eMTBs by other land users who don't know, or care, about the difference.


I am still leaning toward the pro ebike side--but above are the most compelling against arguments I've yet heard. Especially that last paragraph. In any event, my only interest lies in keeping decommissioned roads/double track open to pedal assist ebikes in places like Westside, Carbon, Dosewallips, Stehekin, similar.
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Tom
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 11:45 pm 
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If it's wilderness ebikes would be out.  If ebikes are allowed you'd be hard pressed to find an e-bike that could do 10K of gain on a single charge.  A capable e-MTB with a decent battery might be able to do 5K of climb (with a lot of pedaling) but I doubt you'd find a place willing to part with $20K value of ebikes for 4 days.  Local shop here told me they rent out their sole remaining $5K value demo eMTB for $125 a day.  Apparently they used to rent out more, but fraudsters rented a bunch of their bikes and never brought them back.
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Brian R
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PostThu Dec 12, 2019 12:07 am 
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The problem is that even when road washouts occur, wilderness boundaries remain static. In most national parks, a "cherry-stem" exempts 50' on either side of the road from its center. In other words, the cherry-stem is a non-wilderness corridor surrounded by designated wilderness.  Hence, when the river claims a section of road, a detour into designated wilderness becomes necessary. If you're on a bike, you are now SOL.
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