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SwitchbackFisher
Boot buster



Joined: 24 Feb 2018
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Boot buster
PostWed Sep 04, 2019 10:13 am 
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Doppelganger wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
Then what's wrong with if you want it you have to use your own power?

Technically you would be augmenting your own power. I would even go so far as to say that clamoring for "equal biking rights in the wilderness" sounds exponentially more elitist to me, almost comical biggrin.gif Why only people with bikes? Telling people they have to walk is about as non-elitist as we can get in this situation imo.

Let's just pretend for a moment that Pahoehoe wrote:
I mean really, keeping push lawnmowers and shopping carts out of wilderness is just elitist.

You're still using your own power after all clown.gif

Do they make fat tire shopping carts I get sick of having to wear a backpack. Not to long ago I saw someone use a wheel barrow to pack an in necessary amount of gear to a nearby lake in a wilderness area. I also saw piles of fresh human poo  (about 2 feet off the trail) and that group was the only one there. We had a chat.

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Schroder
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Joined: 26 Oct 2007
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PostWed Sep 04, 2019 10:55 am 
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Slugman wrote:
I've hiked several trails that allow bikes and didn't see any damage.

Did I need to specify steep dirt trails?  The point that I was trying to make is that there is some terrain where bikes can do significant damage to the track that other users, including horses, won't.  The most noticeable being on steep switchbacks where all the dirt gets piled up on the outer side of the curve from skidding and becomes treacherously steep on foot.

If you want to see an example of large numbers of bikes, horses, and hikers on a network of trails go to Anacortes Community Forest Lands or Whidbey Kettles. Every intersection is marked on which user is allowed on a trail branch - bikes and horses eliminated from the steepest or wettest tracks.
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joker
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seeker
PostWed Sep 04, 2019 11:07 am 
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Slugman wrote:
I've hiked several trails that allow bikes and didn't see any damage. Reality is ridiculous I guess.

I've seen this, and I've ALSO  seen what Schroder reported. It depends on  both the nature of the trail - particularly  how steep it gets especially in corners/curves - and how loose the trail surface is as well as whether the people who tend to ride on it follow the "no skidding" dictum I learned from I think IMBA or some similar organization's set of rules for riding way back when I rode a mountain  bike a lot. I live near Gold Creek County Park (King County Parks, on outskirts of Woodinville) and there's one dowhill where I see significant ruts appear periodically from just one pass by one or more bikers (i.e. I walked it  the  day before when there were no ruts, and subsequently I've been seeing deeper and deeper when ruts forming which now are starting to channel runoff which just accelerates the erosion) - these ruts are after a decent straight stretch of wide downhill followed by a decent curve, and it's obvious that these riders are skidding when they hit the curve rather than  anticipating it by slowing w/o skidding BEFORE hitting  the curve.

But yeah, if everyone rides the way they're supposed to, this won't happen. FWIW I've also been seeing  more and more newly braided trails forming on various close-in  hikes (the "abandoned trail" up Silver Peak is an example; there has been  braiding up there since I started hiking  it a quarter century ago but in the past two years a bunch more has appeard - same deal with the steep part of the trail up Bandera, etc.) which has come from hikers trying to find a more forgiving route than the muddy or rocky existing  trail. So erosion  from ill advised user behavior is  hardly unique to bikes. But nonetheless it's impressive how much dirt movement one pass from  a crew of bikers can cause in the right spot.

RandyHiker wrote:
I've also recently started seeing folks with large speaker stacks mounted on carts rolling down the sidewalk and paths so they can share their tunes with everyone within a 200 yard radius.

Radio Rahim returns!!
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Pahoehoe
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PostWed Sep 04, 2019 11:11 am 
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What you are referring to is a berm.  Those are built.  Bikes will actually ruin berms when they are really wet or really dry, requiring the to be rebuilt.

It's pretty simple to build them in a way that the inside is walkable for hikers, but super steep berms really should be only built on biker only or biker has right of way trails like Tiger Mtn MTB bike trails.
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Doppelganger
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PostWed Sep 04, 2019 11:14 am 
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SwitchbackFisher wrote:
Do they make fat tire shopping carts I get sick of having to wear a backpack. Not to long ago I saw someone use a wheel barrow to pack an in necessary amount of gear to a nearby lake in a wilderness area. I also saw piles of fresh human poo  (about 2 feet off the trail) and that group was the only one there. We had a chat.

The old PCT Suitcase Hiker was hardcore. He did it the hardest way, several times over. Wonder what his story was and how things went for him.
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Cyclopath
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Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Faster than light
PostWed Sep 04, 2019 4:07 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
Gee IDK -- based on the context of referencing a 15 km climb that an elite could climb in 42 minutes -- I'm not sure how you got the idea I was taking about a sprint.

You were telling us what you predict the average cyclist is capable of, but weren't clear about it.  I tried to help people understand how this stuff works.

You seem to be going on auto argue, and that doesn't interest me.  So let's let this drop.
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treeswarper
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Joined: 25 Dec 2006
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Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostSun Sep 08, 2019 10:35 am 
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What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Joseph
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Joseph
PostSun Sep 08, 2019 2:27 pm 
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There are lots of places where people can enjoy riding the e-bikes and get out in the wilderness. And certainly more trails can be built and maintained for use by e-bikes.

I say keep them out of the national parks and official wilderness areas (Alpine Lakes, etc.).  Too much traffic and use already.
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Tom
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PostSun Sep 08, 2019 2:34 pm 
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Joseph wrote:
There are lots of places where people can enjoy riding the e-bikes and get out in the wilderness.

A lot?  Really?  Where?
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Cyclopath
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Faster than light
PostSun Sep 08, 2019 4:15 pm 
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I think this is a case of wilderness and Wilderness.  There are places you can (legally) ride a bike that feel wild, that most people would recognize as wilderness.  There's are no places in this country where you can ride a bike in federally-declared Wilderness.

I haven't done Angels Staircase yet, but Cutthroat Pass feels pretty wild on a weekday when it's not crowded.  I think that's what he meant.
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Joseph
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PostSun Sep 08, 2019 4:40 pm 
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Tom wrote:
Joseph wrote:
There are lots of places where people can enjoy riding the e-bikes and get out in the wilderness.

A lot?  Really?  Where?

I guess I was referring to anywhere you can legally ride a regular pedal bike (or mountain bike) - along gravel roads, logging roads, etc.  Maybe more on the east side of the cascades (?).  In any case, I would prefer to not have them in the national parks.
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Tom
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PostSun Sep 08, 2019 5:19 pm 
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I'm confused.  What are you opposed to?  Bikes in national parks?  Or allowing e-bikes where bikes can go?  You don't seem to really know where e-bikes can ride.
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Ski
><((((°>



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><((((°>
PostSun Sep 08, 2019 5:25 pm 
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I think we're back to the "confusion about what designated wilderness areas are" part again.

If people refuse to use the same language as lands management agencies, or continue to assign their own definitions to terms which are clearly defined in federal statutes, they will always be confused.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Tom
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PostSun Sep 08, 2019 5:53 pm 
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A good bit of the confusion comes down to the title of the article being disingenuous and intended to mislead rather than highlight e-bikes will only be allowed where bikes are already permitted and that superintendents are given discretion to determine what’s appropriate for their park.
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Damian
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PostSun Sep 08, 2019 6:13 pm 
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Schroder wrote:
take a look at any trail with a series of switchbacks and try to walk on the ramps created from them skidding around every one of them.

Where?
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