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MtnGoat
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 2:27 pm 
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The emission of noise or exhaust can be validated empirically, unlike feelings.

If feelings are going to be the basis for exclusions where the exclusions cannot be supported by empirical measurements of impact to others this needs to be upfront.

The idea it's not about rights is inaccurate, since rights are the basis upon which any legal issues would rest.

Further, the differences noted between hikers and cyclists usage do not exist in the bike vs ebike sphere. Similar ranges of mass, speed, etc.

The chief objection really appears to be the desire to maintain some kind of purity in matters where ones own effort is inexplicably tied to someone else's. which is fine until its used as a basis for excluding other users whose ride differs only in power source.

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Pahoehoe
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 5:50 pm 
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Mas and speed between climbers and winch climbers is the same, too.
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Riverside Laker
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 6:10 pm 
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I wonder if the same arguments were made in pubs when power steering and power windows became ubiquitous.
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Ski
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 6:34 pm 
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1913 Hibbard Spencer Bartlett & Co. catalog Whip Stocks & Lashes ad pp 1370
1913 Hibbard Spencer Bartlett & Co. catalog Whip Stocks & Lashes ad pp 1370
1913 Hibbard Spencer Bartlett & Co. Catalog Whip Sockets ad pp 1377
1913 Hibbard Spencer Bartlett & Co. Catalog Whip Sockets ad pp 1377

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Brian R
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 7:13 pm 
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Ski wrote:
^ Your putative "bureaucratic class" is using a motorized means of transportation up the Westside Road because it's most likely been determined to be "the minimum necessary for the administration" of the area - expecting NPS staff to walk all the way up there and back for regular patrols of the area most likely isn't a practical idea.
For the same reasons, the National Park Service uses a Hughes 500 helicopter to ferry fisheries staff people up and down the rivers at Olympic National Park, far into "designated wilderness."

As to
Brian R wrote:
"... why riding an ebike up Westside Road violates anybody's sense of fairness..."

(a) Some people just can't find enough stuff to complain about.
(b) Some people think the "no mechanical transport" line in the Wilderness Act of 1964 applies to every square inch of National Park, National Forest, and/or Bureau of Lands Management real estate.

Looks like we're similarly skeptical on these latter points. Re my bureaucratic class comments--and your response that NPS uses vehicles on WSR for necessary administration--I would just reiterate my belief that Westside Road should be reopened to private cars to Klapatche Point. And no, I don;t believe a helicopter should be used to move fisheries, or staff of any kind (except for rescues/emergencies) around national parks. Rules should be equally applied. Let them use horses.
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treeswarper
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 7:37 pm 
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Brian R wrote:
And no, I don;t believe a helicopter should be used to move fisheries, or staff of any kind (except for rescues/emergencies) around national parks. Rules should be equally applied. Let them use horses.

Horses sometimes cause on the job injuries.

One excursion on the Okanogan in the 1990s had a hand slammed in a horse trailer door, one rider stung by bees and thrown, plus some other injuries  that I cannot recall.  The trip ended early. The pickup pulling the horse trailer had problems on the way back.  If something could go wrong, it did on that trip.

I'm not sure how stock is purchased, but the horses can be a bit ornery and also can sense when inexperienced people are on them.

Horses and inexperienced riders.  What could possibly go wrong?

Perhaps they should ride ebikes instead.

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Brian R
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 7:48 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
Horses sometimes cause on the job injuries.

One excursion on the Okanogan in the 1990s had a hand slammed in a horse trailer door, one rider stung by bees and thrown, plus some other injuries  that I cannot recall.  The trip ended early. The pickup pulling the horse trailer had problems on the way back.  If something could go wrong, it did on that trip.

Sounds just awful. rolleyes.gif  But not as bad as an SUV/ATV rollover--or gyro crash. Still, if horses are too much for a bureaucrat or college intern to handle, then let them hike--like the rest of us. Or, in the case of Westside Road, walk, pedal power, ebike--or let the rest of us drive it like they do.
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 8:26 pm 
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Well... the issues of horses and helicopters goes far beyond the scope of this discussion, but let me submit that there are valid reasons for the use of the helicopters for the fisheries people - it's simply too damn difficult to walk in any reasonable amount of time, and the idea of using pack stock up there simply isn't a viable option.
As to driving up to Klapatche Point: I used to go up there quite frequently after work, just to watch the sun go down, and I remember the drive quite clearly.
Due to the washout at Tahoma Creek, they've determined that the road isn't repairable and is better left as a hiker/mountain bike area than allowing automobiles all the way up there. One could argue endlessly about whether or not automobiles should be allowed up there again, or whether or not the road should be repaired to meet the standards required for such use, but at this point in time it's most likely a moot argument - the odds of either happening are probably about the same as would be for reopening the Carbon River Road to vehicular traffic: none.

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Brian R
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 9:14 pm 
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Carbon is a different story. Aggradation has piled gravel bars almost 40 feet higher than the road in places.  The entire grade is doomed by the shifting river. The question is this: as this happens, will wilderness boundaries be redrawn to allow continued use of bicycles to Ipsut Campground?

On the other hand, Westside is still 95% same shape it was when it was closed back in the 80s. The portable bridge at Dry Creek could be easily upgraded. In fact, MRNP has done a LOT of work on the grade along Tahoma Creek, pounding pilings into the abutment and staging tons of rip-rap and culvert along the grade near the old campground. The optics of rangers and NPS staff driving up that road in SUVs and pickups past hikers and bikers every day is just awful.

That said, ebikes do offer a way for less fit to continue enjoying the "lost world" feel along Westside Road.
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RandyHiker
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 9:17 pm 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
Mas and speed between climbers and winch climbers is the same, too.

Why bother with a winch,  electric helicopters are coming soon.

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Pahoehoe
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 11:16 pm 
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Sweet!  I'll hover that sh## right over your ebike.  Its quiet and has no exhaust.

I promise not to hit you.
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MtnGoat
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PostSun Dec 01, 2019 9:45 pm 
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You really dislike the idea of sharing a trail with someone with someone whose only empirical difference from you is they have a quiet motor on their bike, don't you.

Can you describe the emotions which disturb your ride if they are there? How does their mere presence upset you?

You said something earlier about muscle power being better, I'd be interested in an argument explaining how the presence of an e bike takes away from your accomplishments.

Basically, the opposition to ebikes makes no sense whatsoever to me. I guess this has been obvious. To me, what I see is a fellow who wants to pedal his bike himself arguing to keep people who aren't peddling off the trails  he doesn't want to share with them... when the only differences don't even impact his experience in any measurable way.

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treeswarper
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 5:54 am 
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Egos.

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Pahoehoe
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 7:19 am 
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It's about evaluating them separately because they have motors.

They shrink the "wilderness".

They DO go much faster uphill than a pedal bike and create a safety issue.

They have motors.

Lazy people who want rewards handed to them without work are trying to get them snuck in as regular bikes.

They have motors.  They need to be their own user group.
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treeswarper
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 7:39 am 
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They don't shrink the wilderness.  Those boundaries are set in stone.  If you are riding in wilderness, you are breaking the law. 

It's really none of your business on the style of bike I choose to pedal, is it?  Now you are calling ebike users "lazy".   That's your problem.  Is it lazy to add lower gears to your mtn bike so it is easier to pedal?  Shouldn't that be monitored also?  It's mechanical and if you truly consider what you ride in to be wilderness, you should only be walking then.  How much work do the work police require?  You really need to ride an ebike up a steep grade.  One without a throttle.  You'll soon find out there is work required. 

Nope, it's an ego problem and you've demonstrated that big time.

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