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neek
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 7:51 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
They don't shrink the wilderness.  Those boundaries are set in stone.  If you are riding in wilderness, you are breaking the law.

Notice "wilderness" was in quotes, thus presumably not referring to designated federal wilderness areas.  If you guys are going to argue you have to at least agree on the rules of language.
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Doppelganger
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 8:33 am 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
They shrink the "wilderness".

I am not disagreeing with you just pointing out that you seem to be only saying "this happens" and not "this is why it happens",

Pahoehoe wrote:
They DO go much faster uphill than a pedal bike and create a safety issue.

A fact followed by a claim but I do not see a direct correlation between the two, faster speeds will always increase risk but this is not a property that is unique to ebikes.

Pahoehoe wrote:
They have motors. 

A lonely fact without any companion claim? It pops up again two lines later?  confused.gif

I need to read more about why you believe these things before I begin to agree with your point of view here
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treeswarper
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 9:17 am 
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The speed of any bike depends on the rider.  I imagine there are a lot of acoustic bikers who could beat me on my pedal assist going uphill.  Just because it gives a boost to pedaling does not make it "easy".  But one has to research and realize the differences between brands, not confuse ebikes with motorcycles, and maybe even ride a few to know this.  Hell, maybe only single speed bikes or better yet, unicycles should only be allowed on bike trails.  I take it that unicycles cannot coast downhill so it would be more of a "pure" experience and really weed out the dreaded lazy people.

As for the use of the word wilderness?  It gets used so badly that folks don't understand why you can drive in one wilderness, but not the other.  The term should not be used for areas where mechanical devices can be ridden.

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treeswarper
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 10:02 am 
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This came out today.  This guy is in super shape so I'd probably be in a higher assist.


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MultiUser
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 10:46 am 
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Riverside Laker wrote:
I wonder if the same arguments were made in pubs when power steering and power windows became ubiquitous.

Probably by some, just like some ebike proponents point at di2 and say "but that has a battery".  But neither power steering, power windows, or di2 provide power for mobility, which is where the line between motorized and nonmotorized should be clearly demarcarted.
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Riverside Laker
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 11:58 am 
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William Lewis Manly made a similar argument in the 1890s, saying people who took the train across the country had it easy. He crossed with emigrants in 1849-50. He probably would think airplanes would be cheating, although he probably couldn't imagine the TSA lines.
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Brian R
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 2:45 pm 
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Hoverboards. Like the one Marty McFly had. Visualize the controversy.
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Pahoehoe
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 3:38 pm 
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A vehicle with a motor that provides propulsion or assistance in propulsion is a motorized vehicle.

Period.  End of subject.

Such vehicles are not non motorized bicycles and should be their own user group, evaluated for access independently from human powered bicycles.

Period.  End of subject.
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Ski
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 4:20 pm 
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well... if that works for you, great.

apparently the National Park Service and National Forest Service saw fit to use their own definitions for the purposes of establishing policy.

you could always try contacting them regarding your issue.

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MtnGoat
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 5:20 pm 
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great. examine them as a separate user group, conclude that e-bikes have no more empirical impacts than regular bikes since the motors do not have the characteristics (openly) objected to for internal combustion motors....and add them to anywhere regular bikes are allowed.

The feeling that someone else is cheating or not working hard enough is not a good reason to exclude other users with the same measurable impacts.

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Pahoehoe
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 8:40 pm 
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Washington State agrees with me as does Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance.

The forest service also doesnt allow them as the trump order doesnt apply.
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Tom
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 2:29 am 
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Take Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance's perspective on e-bkes with a grain of salt.

https://www.evergreenmtb.org/ebikeaccess

Quote:
Assessing risks to MTB trail funding. We’re working with our grant agencies to determine whether e-MTB access to trails could potentially leave Evergreen ineligible for non-motorized trail grants.

If the grant agencies don’t view e-MTBs as “non-motorized,” Evergreen’s future grant opportunities could be greatly limited, as bike trails open to e-MTBs would no longer qualify for grants.

We're carefully assessing any potential risk to that funding as it remains our biggest income source for trail building and maintenance.
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 7:27 am 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
Washington State agrees with me as does Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance.

The forest service also doesnt allow them as the trump order doesnt apply.

So you have other folks who agree with you on exclusions, while you can't really explain with any empirical reasons why you are harmed.

So what? Now we're down to appeals to authority.

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Pahoehoe
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 7:31 am 
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Tom wrote:
Take Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance's perspective on e-bkes with a grain of salt.

https://www.evergreenmtb.org/ebikeaccess

Quote:
Assessing risks to MTB trail funding. We’re working with our grant agencies to determine whether e-MTB access to trails could potentially leave Evergreen ineligible for non-motorized trail grants.

If the grant agencies don’t view e-MTBs as “non-motorized,” Evergreen’s future grant opportunities could be greatly limited, as bike trails open to e-MTBs would no longer qualify for grants.

We're carefully assessing any potential risk to that funding as it remains our biggest income source for trail building and maintenance.


You should read/post  the whole page rather than cherry pick.

https://www.evergreenmtb.org/ebikeaccess
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Pahoehoe
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 7:33 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
Washington State agrees with me as does Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance.

The forest service also doesnt allow them as the trump order doesnt apply.

So you have other folks who agree with you on exclusions, while you can't really explain with any empirical reasons why you are harmed.

So what? Now we're down to appeals to authority.

I havent said anything about where anyone should be excluded from.

I said a bike with a motor is different from a bike without a motor and should be evaluated for access as such.
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