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MultiUser
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 11:46 am 
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Riverside Laker wrote:
I wonder if the same arguments were made in pubs when power steering and power windows became ubiquitous.

Probably by some, just like some ebike proponents point at di2 and say "but that has a battery".  But neither power steering, power windows, or di2 provide power for mobility, which is where the line between motorized and nonmotorized should be clearly demarcarted.
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Riverside Laker
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 12:58 pm 
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William Lewis Manly made a similar argument in the 1890s, saying people who took the train across the country had it easy. He crossed with emigrants in 1849-50. He probably would think airplanes would be cheating, although he probably couldn't imagine the TSA lines.
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Brian R
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 3:45 pm 
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Hoverboards. Like the one Marty McFly had. Visualize the controversy.
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 4:38 pm 
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A vehicle with a motor that provides propulsion or assistance in propulsion is a motorized vehicle.

Period.  End of subject.

Such vehicles are not non motorized bicycles and should be their own user group, evaluated for access independently from human powered bicycles.

Period.  End of subject.
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 5:20 pm 
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well... if that works for you, great.

apparently the National Park Service and National Forest Service saw fit to use their own definitions for the purposes of establishing policy.

you could always try contacting them regarding your issue.

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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 6:20 pm 
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great. examine them as a separate user group, conclude that e-bikes have no more empirical impacts than regular bikes since the motors do not have the characteristics (openly) objected to for internal combustion motors....and add them to anywhere regular bikes are allowed.

The feeling that someone else is cheating or not working hard enough is not a good reason to exclude other users with the same measurable impacts.

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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 9:40 pm 
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Washington State agrees with me as does Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance.

The forest service also doesnt allow them as the trump order doesnt apply.
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Tom
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 3:29 am 
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Take Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance's perspective on e-bkes with a grain of salt.

https://www.evergreenmtb.org/ebikeaccess

Quote:
Assessing risks to MTB trail funding. We’re working with our grant agencies to determine whether e-MTB access to trails could potentially leave Evergreen ineligible for non-motorized trail grants.

If the grant agencies don’t view e-MTBs as “non-motorized,” Evergreen’s future grant opportunities could be greatly limited, as bike trails open to e-MTBs would no longer qualify for grants.

We're carefully assessing any potential risk to that funding as it remains our biggest income source for trail building and maintenance.
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 8:27 am 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
Washington State agrees with me as does Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance.

The forest service also doesnt allow them as the trump order doesnt apply.

So you have other folks who agree with you on exclusions, while you can't really explain with any empirical reasons why you are harmed.

So what? Now we're down to appeals to authority.

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Pahoehoe
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 8:31 am 
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Tom wrote:
Take Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance's perspective on e-bkes with a grain of salt.

https://www.evergreenmtb.org/ebikeaccess

Quote:
Assessing risks to MTB trail funding. We’re working with our grant agencies to determine whether e-MTB access to trails could potentially leave Evergreen ineligible for non-motorized trail grants.

If the grant agencies don’t view e-MTBs as “non-motorized,” Evergreen’s future grant opportunities could be greatly limited, as bike trails open to e-MTBs would no longer qualify for grants.

We're carefully assessing any potential risk to that funding as it remains our biggest income source for trail building and maintenance.


You should read/post  the whole page rather than cherry pick.

https://www.evergreenmtb.org/ebikeaccess
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Pahoehoe
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 8:33 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
Washington State agrees with me as does Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance.

The forest service also doesnt allow them as the trump order doesnt apply.

So you have other folks who agree with you on exclusions, while you can't really explain with any empirical reasons why you are harmed.

So what? Now we're down to appeals to authority.

I havent said anything about where anyone should be excluded from.

I said a bike with a motor is different from a bike without a motor and should be evaluated for access as such.
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Randito
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 9:39 am 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
I said a bike with a motor is different from a bike without a motor and should be evaluated for access as such.

It appears the the district ranger for the Okanogan Wenatchee National Forest agrees with you.  Perusing various entries in the forests trail catalog I'm seeing items like this:

USFS wrote:
No motorcycles on this trail. E-Bikes (with full electric motor power or pedal assist) are not allowed.

and

USFS wrote:
Restrictions: Motorized use prohibited

Numerous trails in the Cle Elum ranger district are open to MTB, eBike and ORV usage.

I haven't found a trail in the Cle Elum RD that is open to MTBs and eBikes, but not ORVs.  Perhaps there are some.
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 9:56 am 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
I havent said anything about where anyone should be excluded from.

I said a bike with a motor is different from a bike without a motor and should be evaluated for access as such.

Let's see if we can address that first issue, you can give us a clear statement for other folks to judge.

In your opinion, should e bikes be excluded from any bike trails?

If so, what bike trails should ebikes be excluded from?

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treeswarper
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 10:01 am 
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An example of common sense.  A speed limit has been set, which would apply to both ebikes and acoustic bikes.  I'm not sure why class 3 bikes are not acceptable.

https://www.montereyherald.com/2019/12/02/pacific-grove-moves-to-regulate-e-bikes/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_content=fb-montereyherald&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR3MjUp8Dxz1DUs44JgKL5G2_kxzi7qRWJDJgD4tZdKAqiigh3l22QhhuhU

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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 10:03 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
It appears the the district ranger for the Okanogan Wenatchee National Forest agrees with you.  Perusing various entries in the forests trail catalog I'm seeing items like this:

Which district?

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