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JVesquire
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 9:18 am 
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Lawsuit filed
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Pahoehoe
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 9:52 am 
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JVesquire wrote:
Lawsuit filed

This is one of the main reason mountain bikers do not want ebikes lumped with us.

It's more leverage to take away hard won access.
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MtnGoat
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 10:33 am 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
This is one of the main reason mountain bikers do not want ebikes lumped with us.

It's more leverage to take away hard won access.

Talk about inversion with full intent. It's as if we're not supposed to notice that words mean things. Here you are arguing that ebikes should not have access because you don't like them in spite of zero empirical reason shown that they take anything from you other than pride in your accomplishments, for some reason....while you claim that someone else's attempt to take access from ebikes, something you *agree* with,  represents some kind of lumping.

Your argument has never demonstrated any principled basis from the start, and it's only getting more byzantine as you keep trying to evade stating the obvious, plainly...you don't want them there because somehow, their peddling less than you impacts you on an emotional level, because it cannot impact you on a sound or exhaust level.

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Brian R
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 11:29 am 
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Once again, PEER is obnoxious and proves that public sector bureaucrats view themselves as being above the rest of us.
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MtnGoat
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 11:43 am 
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This is a systemic problem which needs to be culled, and thoroughly, throughout the federal and state govts. I work with some of these folks in the FCC and the arrogance is astounding. It has nothing to do with technical expertise. It is the attitude that they, not the little people, are the bosses.

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MultiUser
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 11:58 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
It's as if we're not supposed to notice that words mean things.

So, does nonmotorized mean no motors, or does it mean only quiet, low impact motors?
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Tom
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 12:24 pm 
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Frequent rationale for non-motorized designation is to reduce user conflicts.  In an area where bikes are allowed but not motorcycles it would seem the "conflict" is more likely from noise and fumes.  I suppose you could argue speed but I don't believe that is typically a complaint.  I'd think if someone doesn't like e-bikes they don't like bikes either so not allowing e-bikes doesn't solve that conflict.  Just read through this thread, most people objecting either think it's allowing bikes where they aren't allowed, or it's bikers that don't like e-bikes.
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MultiUser
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 12:49 pm 
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IMO, it is very much as a case of a technology that is not addressed by the land management structure in existence.  ebikes are clearly motorized.  They are also closer in impact to the nonmotorized types of activities (certainly far less impact than horses).  ebike users argue they have no more impact than a regular bike, and are probably correct.  Both lawsuits to date (USFS in Tahoe and the latest re NPS) argue they are motorized, and the required processes to permit them were not followed.  Also probably correct.

AFAIK, the 'user conflicts' that nonmotorized designations seek to avoid are purely conflicts from those unwilling to share trails with motors.  Speed is definitely mentioned in those complaints, as is dust and noise.  It will be interesting to see if the absence of noise is better or worse in this regard as emotos become common in the future.
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MtnGoat
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 12:50 pm 
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some bikers don't like ebikes even though they have non of the empirical drawbacks demonstrably present when motorized inherently indicated internal combustion motors.

that no longer being the case, the bans need to be updated to include internal combustion, but not ebikes. An impact to feelings of self worth or something is not sufficient reason to exclude other tax paying users with little to no demonstrable empirical impact on the resource from the bike itself.

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Tom
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 2:36 pm 
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Here is one discussion defining "use conflict".  Key drivers seem to be noise and environmental impact.  I didn't see speed mentioned but perhaps in other discussions.

https://books.google.com/books?id=bZ42AQAAMAAJ&pg=SL14-PA134&lpg=SL14-PA134
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wanderwild
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 3:03 pm 
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MultiUser wrote:
ebike users argue they have no more impact than a regular bike, and are probably correct.

No, they are not correct. Perhaps one e bike and one "acoustic" bike on the same path will make the same impact. But, and big but - e bikes make riding easier. Now you have a whole lot more people able to go further distances, go uphill, and generally impact wilderness far in from trailheads. That is why when it comes to impact, e bikes are not just "more similar" to motorized transportation, they are motorized transportation.

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Tom
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 3:04 pm 
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Ah, the buffer argument.  Soundly rejected by the authors of the wilderness act.

Quote:
The designation by this Act or by amendments made by this Act of wilderness areas ... shall not create or imply the creation of protective perimeters or buffer zones around any wilderness area ...
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RumiDude
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 3:15 pm 
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I think speed has been an issue in the past for many people. I know speed has been an issue when discussing user group conflicts with mtn bikes here on NWHikers.

And as speed relates to e-bikes, we just don't know how what new developments in technology will allow e-bikes to go even faster and further in the near and far future. So while most current e-bikes are similar to mtn bikes, that could radically change in the not too distant future. Approving current technology e-bikes now may prove to be problematic down the road. And once something gets approved, it is hell changing the regulation of it when things change.

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Tom
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 3:26 pm 
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Right, but where MTB are already allowed said speed conflict would exist.  Allowing e-bikes does not change that conflict.  Very different speed conflict vs. motorcyles and ORV.  Most places that allow e-bikes limit them to class 1 (20 mph) on shared use trails.  The e-bike laws already address the speed issue and what is considered an e-bike vs. motorized vehicle.
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Randito
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 4:18 pm 
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RumiDude wrote:
And as speed relates to e-bikes, we just don't know how what new developments in technology will allow e-bikes to go even faster and further in the near and far future.

One concern that I have with popular trails isn't with Class 1,2 or even 3 eBikes in their factory configuration.   I think a growing issue will be end-user hacked eBikes that remove the 20 mph and 28 mph assistance limits and remove the need to pedal at all and provide throttle only movement.

I've seen such hacked eBikes in common use for food delivery in NYC -- seeing delivery bikes whizz by at 35mph is common (speed limit is 25 mph for all vehicles)   These sorts of modifications and usage are illegal by NYC law as well as speeding, running red lights and going the wrong way on one way streets -- all of which are common practice by food delivery workers.  Enforcement of these any of these laws is pretty much limited to fines and charges after the fact of a collision.

So I have no doubt that we will start seeing similarly hacked eBikes -- essentially electric motorcycles whizzing around on trails -- on trails that are open to ORVs in general -- no big deal.   I'm not seeing any practical way for the NPS, USFS or other land managers can enforce speed limits out on the trails.   There might be some limited ability to fine users of eBikes for using trails that are designated MTB bike only -- but enforcement out on the trails allow eBikes will I think be limited to citations issued after the fact of an injury collision that involved an evacuation.
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