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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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 Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:39 pm |
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| wanderwild wrote: | | MultiUser wrote: | | ebike users argue they have no more impact than a regular bike, and are probably correct. |
No, they are not correct. Perhaps one e bike and one "acoustic" bike on the same path will make the same impact. But, and big but - e bikes make riding easier. Now you have a whole lot more people able to go further distances, go uphill, and generally impact wilderness far in from trailheads. That is why when it comes to impact, e bikes are not just "more similar" to motorized transportation, they are motorized transportation. |
What you and others seem to ignore is that a battery only has so much power. The more uphill you go, means you use up the battery quicker. At $800 a pop, one doesn't want to have too many, if any, spares. Plus the batteries are heavy to carry.
You prove you don't know a whole lot about ebikes by making assumptions of going long distances at high speeds uphill. Hills really eat up the power. I should know. I have a nasty hill up to my house. I have my bike set on Turbo, gear set in 2 and huff and puff to get up that hill whilst the battery is losing power.
Remember folks. E bikes run on BATTERIES and pedaling. It's a constant process of trying not to run the battery out before the trip is over.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:56 pm |
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| treeswarper wrote: | | RandyHiker wrote: | | RumiDude wrote: | | And as speed relates to e-bikes, we just don't know how what new developments in technology will allow e-bikes to go even faster and further in the near and far future. |
One concern that I have with popular trails isn't with Class 1,2 or even 3 eBikes in their factory configuration. I think a growing issue will be end-user hacked eBikes that remove the 20 mph and 28 mph assistance limits and remove the need to pedal at all and provide throttle only movement.
I've seen such hacked eBikes in common use for food delivery in NYC -- seeing delivery bikes whizz by at 35mph is common (speed limit is 25 mph for all vehicles) These sorts of modifications and usage are illegal by NYC law as well as speeding, running red lights and going the wrong way on one way streets -- all of which are common practice by food delivery workers. Enforcement of these any of these laws is pretty much limited to fines and charges after the fact of a collision.
So I have no doubt that we will start seeing similarly hacked eBikes -- essentially electric motorcycles whizzing around on trails -- on trails that are open to ORVs in general -- no big deal. I'm not seeing any practical way for the NPS, USFS or other land managers can enforce speed limits out on the trails. There might be some limited ability to fine users of eBikes for using trails that are designated MTB bike only -- but enforcement out on the trails allow eBikes will I think be limited to citations issued after the fact of an injury collision that involved an evacuation. |
Please quit referring to NYC. It is not here. It is no way similar. There's no way one could ride 35 mph down the trails I am familiar with unless you had a death wish. It's kind of like skiing. Do you ski at high speeds on all trails? All hillsides? Do they ski in NYC? If they do, I don't care. It isn't here. |
While you are correct about NYC not being here, almost everything else you wrote here is wrong. Maybe you can't imagine bikes traveling that fast on trails but that is just the limitation on your imagination. If motorcycles can go that fast on singletrack mountain trails, and they do, then modified e-bikes can as well.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9513 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:06 pm |
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| treeswarper wrote: | | Please quit referring to NYC. It is not here. It is no way similar. There's no way one could ride 35 mph down the trails I am familiar with unless you had a death wish. |
How would you know? Have you seen the streets in NYC? -- with all the chuck holes, double parked cars/trucks it, people walking out into the street without looking, it is an obstacle course. Some of the delivery drivers do indeed act like they have a death wish or more precisely are driven by economic need to take unreasonable risks. 5 deaths in six months.
| treeswarper wrote: | | Do you ski at high speeds on all trails? All hillsides? |
I do ski fast on trails, certainly over 35mph -- at least when there aren't a lot of people around. When I'm skiing in trees where there is no trail, I do follow the principle of "Don't ski faster than you are willing to hit a tree"
| treeswarper wrote: | | Do they ski in NYC? |
I don't know about "they", but I certainly used my roller skis during my stint in NYC -- I did a 10KM loop from my apartment in Harlem around central park dozens of times. I saw maybe a half-dozen other roller ski nutcases.
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Pahoehoe
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Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 563 | TRs | Pics
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Pahoehoe
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Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:47 pm |
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| Tom wrote: | | Right, but where MTB are already allowed said speed conflict would exist. Allowing e-bikes does not change that conflict. Very different speed conflict vs. motorcyles and ORV. Most places that allow e-bikes limit them to class 1 (20 mph) on shared use trails. The e-bike laws already address the speed issue and what is considered an e-bike vs. motorized vehicle. |
SPEED uphill is an issue because in many areas hikers and bikers share climbing trails but bikes have their own decending trails.
This is because even a very fit biker cannot climb much faster than a hiker so sharing works.
Ebikes can climb much faster and so that sharing will no longer work as well.
Perhaps require ebikers to climb the fire roads rather than the climbing trails.
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Pahoehoe
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Joined: 12 Oct 2017
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Pahoehoe
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Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:50 pm |
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| treeswarper wrote: | | RandyHiker wrote: | | RumiDude wrote: | | And as speed relates to e-bikes, we just don't know how what new developments in technology will allow e-bikes to go even faster and further in the near and far future. |
One concern that I have with popular trails isn't with Class 1,2 or even 3 eBikes in their factory configuration. I think a growing issue will be end-user hacked eBikes that remove the 20 mph and 28 mph assistance limits and remove the need to pedal at all and provide throttle only movement.
I've seen such hacked eBikes in common use for food delivery in NYC -- seeing delivery bikes whizz by at 35mph is common (speed limit is 25 mph for all vehicles) These sorts of modifications and usage are illegal by NYC law as well as speeding, running red lights and going the wrong way on one way streets -- all of which are common practice by food delivery workers. Enforcement of these any of these laws is pretty much limited to fines and charges after the fact of a collision.
So I have no doubt that we will start seeing similarly hacked eBikes -- essentially electric motorcycles whizzing around on trails -- on trails that are open to ORVs in general -- no big deal. I'm not seeing any practical way for the NPS, USFS or other land managers can enforce speed limits out on the trails. There might be some limited ability to fine users of eBikes for using trails that are designated MTB bike only -- but enforcement out on the trails allow eBikes will I think be limited to citations issued after the fact of an injury collision that involved an evacuation. |
Please quit referring to NYC. It is not here. It is no way similar. There's no way one could ride 35 mph down the trails I am familiar with unless you had a death wish. It's kind of like skiing. Do you ski at high speeds on all trails? All hillsides? Do they ski in NYC? If they do, I don't care. It isn't here. |
One absolutely could ride 35 mph up the fire roads mountain bikers share with hikers, dog walkers, runners, mamas pushing strollers, gravel bikers, the odd horse rider and anyone else non motorized that happens to want to be there...
35 mph would be extremely hazardous and if it can be done in NYC it can be done in the PNW.
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Pahoehoe
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Joined: 12 Oct 2017
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Pahoehoe
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Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:53 pm |
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Today I encountered an ebike riding trails ebikes are not allowed on.
This is privately owned land with an agreement in place with the owners for public use that excludes ebikes
I told him in my nicest voice that ebikes were not allowed there and he said "dont be a dick".
Ebike riders are so entitled they dont even respect privately owned property.
I feel super secure that ebikes will follow the rules on the class of ebikes allowed and not make illegal modifications...
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Pahoehoe
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Joined: 12 Oct 2017
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Pahoehoe
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Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:58 pm |
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| wanderwild wrote: | | MultiUser wrote: | | ebike users argue they have no more impact than a regular bike, and are probably correct. |
No, they are not correct. Perhaps one e bike and one "acoustic" bike on the same path will make the same impact. But, and big but - e bikes make riding easier. Now you have a whole lot more people able to go further distances, go uphill, and generally impact wilderness far in from trailheads. That is why when it comes to impact, e bikes are not just "more similar" to motorized transportation, they are motorized transportation. |
Exactly. Everyone can go farther and faster on an ebike, so their impact increases X amount as soon as they become motorized.
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MultiUser
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Joined: 16 Feb 2011
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| Pahoehoe wrote: | | One absolutely could ride 35 mph up the fire roads mountain bikers share with hikers, dog walkers, runners, mamas pushing strollers, gravel bikers, the odd horse rider and anyone else non motorized that happens to want to be there...
35 mph would be extremely hazardous and if it can be done in NYC it can be done in the PNW. |
35 mph is pretty fast. I think in reality, on an outdoor trail, we'd all agree that conflicts will occur at much lower speeds.
Let's look at some facts on speeds:
KOM on Off the Grid, a newish, built for bikes, singletrack on Tiger. Technically multi use and open to uphill bike traffic, in reality nobody rides up it. Fastest time = 16mph.
KOM on East Tiger Summit, one of the first of the new generation of built for bikes trails on Tiger. Fastest time = 16mph. Note that this was recently changed from a two direction trail for mtb, to dh mtb only, due to perceived safety issues by DNR.
Those don't seem so fast, maybe there are some wider/faster trails out there.
Sure enough, Poppin' Tops, a one way DH only, bike only (I think) trail at Raging - KOM = 25mph
Now for a climb, KOM on Master Link, a one way climbing trail on Tiger is at 7.3mph, which corresponds to an estimate by strava of 338W of power (nicely done!). Plugging that into Analytic Cycling, and adding 250W of constant power looks like it would add about 25% more speed. That's still only up 9.1 mph though.
And of course, those are the top of the strava leader boards. Most are a long, long way behind those times.
Realistically, epower itself is unlikely to lead to noticeably higher speeds, unless the bikes are frequently hacked, or the class 1 -3 structure is ignored. What will lead to higher speed is being able to use epower to ride a heavier, more DH capable bike without suffering the inefficient pedaling penalty they currently have. (see the Specialized video previously linked...the latest Kenova doesn't even bother with a carbon frame, because with power, alu is just fine)
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Pahoehoe
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Pahoehoe
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Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:32 pm |
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Umm, I have personally seen ebikes blasting up fire roads at unsafe speeds. I was almost hit by one.
It's also worth noting that the mountain bike trails at Tiger have signs warning hikers that they are mountain bike trails and that hikers are to yield to bikers.
IMO, downhill trails should be downhill bike traffic only trails but it's really hard for hikers to swallow.
They dont understand a trail they arent allowed on even when you build a more suitable hiking trail that runs parallel.
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Brian R
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Joined: 10 Feb 2018
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Brian R
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Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:39 pm |
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| Pahoehoe wrote: | | IMO, downhill trails should be downhill bike traffic only trails but it's really hard for hikers to swallow.
They dont understand a trail they arent allowed on even when you build a more suitable hiking trail that runs parallel. |
In my experience, hikers, backpackers, climbers exhibit stronger elitist and anti-social behaviors than the general population.
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11279 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:46 pm |
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| MultiUser wrote: | | Pahoehoe wrote: | | One absolutely could ride 35 mph up the fire roads mountain bikers share with hikers, dog walkers, runners, mamas pushing strollers, gravel bikers, the odd horse rider and anyone else non motorized that happens to want to be there...
35 mph would be extremely hazardous and if it can be done in NYC it can be done in the PNW. |
35 mph is pretty fast. I think in reality, on an outdoor trail, we'd all agree that conflicts will occur at much lower speeds.
Let's look at some facts on speeds:
KOM on Off the Grid, a newish, built for bikes, singletrack on Tiger. Technically multi use and open to uphill bike traffic, in reality nobody rides up it. Fastest time = 16mph.
KOM on East Tiger Summit, one of the first of the new generation of built for bikes trails on Tiger. Fastest time = 16mph. Note that this was recently changed from a two direction trail for mtb, to dh mtb only, due to perceived safety issues by DNR.
Those don't seem so fast, maybe there are some wider/faster trails out there.
Sure enough, Poppin' Tops, a one way DH only, bike only (I think) trail at Raging - KOM = 25mph
Now for a climb, KOM on Master Link, a one way climbing trail on Tiger is at 7.3mph, which corresponds to an estimate by strava of 338W of power (nicely done!). Plugging that into Analytic Cycling, and adding 250W of constant power looks like it would add about 25% more speed. That's still only up 9.1 mph though.
And of course, those are the top of the strava leader boards. Most are a long, long way behind those times.
Realistically, epower itself is unlikely to lead to noticeably higher speeds, unless the bikes are frequently hacked, or the class 1 -3 structure is ignored. What will lead to higher speed is being able to use epower to ride a heavier, more DH capable bike without suffering the inefficient pedaling penalty they currently have. (see the Specialized video previously linked...the latest Kenova doesn't even bother with a carbon frame, because with power, alu is just fine) |
At last some reality and sanity. 
I actually own and ride two different ebikes and cannot figure out where the fear and high speed "facts" are coming from, especially going uphill. Me thinks a lot exaggeration and alternative facts are being stated in the previous panic filled posts.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11279 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:54 pm |
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Yes Randy, New York City looks exactly like our mountains! And biking is so similar! 
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Pahoehoe
Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 563 | TRs | Pics
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Pahoehoe
Member
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Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:03 pm |
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You have two ebikes but no idea how fit and skilled mountain bikers can be.
I completely believe that you, personally cannot go above a snail's pace.
Some jerk with moto skills could tear sh## up, especially when mod kits hit the market.
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Tom
Admin
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Tom
Admin
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Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:20 pm |
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Nobody is riding uphill at 35 mph on an e-bike. Fake news.
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11279 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:30 pm |
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| Tom wrote: | | Nobody is riding uphill at 35 mph on an e-bike. Fake news. |
I think my speed up the steep, paved road to my house is 5mph with the power level on Turbo and in second gear with the Bosch motor bike. I'm working hard to do that. Fit, acoustical bikers are the only ones that make it up the hill without getting off and they have to zig zag.
The Radmini will buzz up the same hill just a bit faster and much easier in level 5 but nowhere near even 15mph. I guess it is the smaller tires and more torque and hub drive.
On a long grade, but not quite as steep, I go at 7 to 9mph. That's also on pavement. Perhaps a more fit and younger person could get a bit more speed going up the same hill. I am also getting a workout as I have to pedal in order to not tax the motor on the mini and if riding the Gazelle, one has to pedal or you don't go.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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