Forum Index > Trail Talk > Electric bikes soon to be humming along national park trails
 Reply to topic
Previous :: Next Topic
Author Message
neek
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Sep 2011
Posts: 2329 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle, WA
neek
Member
PostSat Dec 07, 2019 12:23 pm 
wanderwild wrote:
I'm sorry, but one can go further WITH a battery (e bike) than without one (normal bike). You can quantify it however you want but that's the fact of the matter. Not really interested in hearing arguments to that point.
Speak for yourself. A 50 mile range would be considered pretty good for an ebike. But I can easily pedal a lightweight bike 100 miles. Certainly couldn't do that if I was lugging around an extra 40 pounds of dead weight (battery, motor, etc.) for half of that distance. (This is all on road, so scale those numbers a bit for trail.) From a different angle: The RAD battery pack is 672 Wh; a pound of fat is 4000 Wh. Batteries can't compete with the chemical energy humans can carry in their bodies and backpacks. Teslas get good range because their batteries are over half a ton, compared with 60 pounds for 10 gallons of gas.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
MtnGoat
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA
MtnGoat
Member
PostSat Dec 07, 2019 12:42 pm 
Neek demonstrates the problem with proclaiming one will 'not hear any more arguments' on a point. Well done. IMO statements such as those should never emerge from the lips or typing fingers of anyone who thinks they're well educated in critical thinking.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
MyFootHurts
Huge Member



Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 912 | TRs | Pics
Location: Kekistan
MyFootHurts
Huge Member
PostSat Dec 07, 2019 2:22 pm 
Pahoehoe wrote:
Ebike assholes think they can go where ever they want and there is absolutely no enforcement.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'll start obeying trail rules with my ebike when dog owners do. And that will likely be never. I rode my ebike on the Springwater trail in Portland a couple years ago. (Its Portland's equivalent of the Burke-Gilman.) I rode past homeless camps of garbage, feces and drug use right along the trail and some fool yelled at me for having an ebike lol.gif The Clown World meme is real honk honk! clown.gif

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11272 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostSat Dec 07, 2019 7:48 pm 
Wanderwild: You cannot just pull a figure out of the air for battery range. On an unpaved trail with uphills you aren't going to get the maximum. If it is cold, take away more distance. Are you heavy? More. What size battery is it? That determines the range. To just pull a figure out of the air and claim that is what e bikes get, well, it makes as much sense as all the other panic stricken misinformation. All batteries are not equal! On my Rad, I got 24 miles ON PAVED roads with some hefty grades. That's not much. On my Gazelle? I haven't maxed it out yet. I've gone 30 miles on PAVED roads and used up maybe a third of the battery? I had a strong tailwind on the way home. Wind affects the battery range too. Of course, it gets less on the long, steep grades around here. Battery range is the most asked question and the least answerable one. But I'm sure one of the experts who have never ridden an ebike will be able to give a highly accurate alternative fact answer. I am contemplating buying a more comfy acoustic bike to do some touring on because there are not plug ins available where I want to ride. Therefore, I'll get longer distances than on my ebike. You all seem clueless about the fact that batteries require charging and there are no electrical outlets available in the woods. Perhaps you also take the Currant Bush joke as factual? embarassedlaugh.gif

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
RumiDude
Marmota olympus



Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 3580 | TRs | Pics
Location: Port Angeles
RumiDude
Marmota olympus
PostSat Dec 07, 2019 8:29 pm 
Tom wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
Here are some facts
Light on facts, heavy on opinion.
Let me slightly revise my statement. I would say "here are some truths" instead. And I stand by that statement regarding each of my bullet points, 1-5.
Tom wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
As I mentioned earlier, it is likely that e-bikes are going to advance technologically sooner or later, probably sooner. The industry is really in it's infantcy. The gap between standard bikes and e-bikes is going to grow huge. These advances are likely going to overwhelm the current e-bike regulations making them obsolete. That is one reason I think is is prudent to move slowly in these matters.
OK, sorry but this is just a boogeyman post. First off the industry is not in it's infancy. What do you see advancing? Batteries? Great, e-bikes get cheaper and can go farther and with less weight. More powerful motors? It's not as if the model e-bike regulation didn't contemplate motors more powerful than 750W and rejected them. 45mph ebike? Yawn, nothing new, also contemplated by the model e-bike regulation.
I am not sure what you mean by boogeyman post. I certainly was not trying to paint anyone or anything as the boogeyman. It is true that electric bikes have been around for a long time, well over a 100 years. But the industry of e-bikes as a commercially viable one is less than 20 years old. It takes a critical mass of buyers before an industry can take off and for e-bikes that has been a relatively recent thing in my opinion. Obviously you are of a different opinion about that. Anyway once a product becomes commercially viable a lot of capital and effort gets thrown at it to develop it biggger and better. I think we have seen similar things in the electric car market. Rules and regulations for e-bikes are all over the place. One reason is that they are so new in regard to the spike in users. Another reason is that the advances made in the developement of them. There is a lot of discontent in the e-bike world over all these things, including how e-bikes are classed. I think it is short-sighted to just drop e-bikes into the same slot with standard bikes, which to my mind is what is happening. And I think at least a vocal few in this thread have done just that, equate e-bikes the same as standard bikes in regards to trail use. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Tom
Admin



Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 17835 | TRs | Pics
Tom
Admin
PostSat Dec 07, 2019 9:42 pm 
The NPS memorandum says ebikes (up to 750W propelled by pedal only) can ride in national parks where bikes can ride. Park superintendents are given discretion to decide where they may not be suitable. That seems reasonable to me. The regulation is not all over the place. Do you even know what the regulations are? WA has adopted the model e-bike legislation which is an attempt to standardize. Your boogeyman concern? That e-bikes are "fundamentally different" and the gap will "grow huge" and "overwhelm" the regulation. dizzy.gif

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Pahoehoe
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 563 | TRs | Pics
Pahoehoe
Member
PostSun Dec 08, 2019 7:19 am 
There is more to the ebike issue than the current NPS regulation. Its obvious in this thread, and it's obvious out on the non motorized trails that ebikers routinely poach. Ebikes have motors so they aren't non motorized and they arent regular human powered pedal bikes. There are legitimate reasons to be concerned. Just like the desire for areas without "mechanized" travel is valid (wilderness areas), non motorized travel areas are also valid.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11272 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostSun Dec 08, 2019 8:46 am 
Pahoehoe wrote:
There is more to the ebike issue than the current NPS regulation. Its obvious in this thread, and it's obvious out on the non motorized trails that ebikers routinely poach. Ebikes have motors so they aren't non motorized and they arent regular human powered pedal bikes. There are legitimate reasons to be concerned. Just like the desire for areas without "mechanized" travel is valid (wilderness areas), non motorized travel areas are also valid.
Everybody has "poachers" in their user group. There are hikers that trash areas, go into the Enchantments without proper permits, go up St. Helens without permits, etc. So, should all hikers be banned because a few break the law? Isn't that legitimate to your way of thinking? You've just spread a bunch of (I won't call them lies) rumors around. I seriously doubt that poaching is routine because you've shown your predisposition to stretch the "truth" so much. I wouldn't take anything you post to be a fact anymore. Your concern is selfish. You don't want to share. That's it. I will not support any building or maintenance of MTB trails because you have represented that user group to be selfish and ill informed. Keep on with that and lose more potential supporters. You are "earning" my scorn.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
MtnGoat
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA
MtnGoat
Member
PostSun Dec 08, 2019 10:40 am 
Pahoehoe wrote:
There is more to the ebike issue than the current NPS regulation. Its obvious in this thread, and it's obvious out on the non motorized trails that ebikers routinely poach. Ebikes have motors so they aren't non motorized and they arent regular human powered pedal bikes. There are legitimate reasons to be concerned. Just like the desire for areas without "mechanized" travel is valid (wilderness areas), non motorized travel areas are also valid.
Harm to your self image or whatever it is you won't describe or even admit to (since you refuse to describe what harms your experience), is not a valid reason to exclude taxpaying citizens from trails mechanized travel is permitted, and they emit neither noise nor exhaust.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
MtnGoat
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA
MtnGoat
Member
PostSun Dec 08, 2019 10:47 am 
treeswarper wrote:
Your concern is selfish. You don't want to share. That's it. I will not support any building or maintenance of MTB trails because you have represented that user group to be selfish and ill informed. Keep on with that and lose more potential supporters. You are "earning" my scorn.
I could be persuaded to this point of view. The exclusionary arguments being made for reasons that can't even be articulated on how ebikes cause harm to the resource is not a particularly objective one. 'motorized' isn't good enough any more when mechanized is OK and ebikes emit no noise nor exhaust. protection of someone's self image is not sufficient reason. If they can't share with users they can neither hear nor smell any more than any other user, there is little reason to fund exclusive playgrounds for the narrow interests of one exclusive user group. Budgets are by definition limited, and funding should go to places which serve the most users. If one group is going to strive to exclude other users for impacts that can't even be quantified or explained, then spend the money elsewhere where more are served per dollar for that activity.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Pahoehoe
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 563 | TRs | Pics
Pahoehoe
Member
PostSun Dec 08, 2019 5:32 pm 
So you want no mountain bike areas? Ebike only? You cannot pedal unassisted here! You are seriously nuts. My opinion is that things with motors are not things that are human powered and need to be their own category and evaluated for access separately. And poaching is huge. I see illegal ebike usage almost every ride on our local trails. Trails on private land that NOBODY is entitled access to. This poaching jeopardizes everyone else's access.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Tom
Admin



Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 17835 | TRs | Pics
Tom
Admin
PostMon Dec 09, 2019 1:59 am 
How many of these ebikes would be poaching if the trails allowed class 1? I realize that you have issues with anything with a motor but just curious. Similarly, do you encounter many gas-powered motorcycles? Also, whose private lands are these and why are you there if nobody is entitled access?

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11272 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostMon Dec 09, 2019 7:11 am 
Yes, why are you riding where you are not supposed to ride? How do you know those riders don't have special access? Private landowners can pick and choose who gets to use their land. I rode on Port Blakely roads. They had no unauthorized "motorized" use, but WA state called my ebike a bicycle and that was legal. So I rode there, as do other ebike users. Rode past the security guy, who we all know, rode past foresters. There was no sign banning ebikes. Port Blakely, at that time allowed walking, horse riding, and bicycles behind their gates. If you call riding an ebike in that area poaching, or trespassing, you are exaggerating once again.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Pahoehoe
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 563 | TRs | Pics
Pahoehoe
Member
PostMon Dec 09, 2019 7:13 am 
Tom wrote:
Also, whose private lands are these and why are you there if nobody is entitled access?
These trails are on timber company land that disallows motor vehicles, specifically ebikes. It is in the use agreement. Ebikers constantly tear down the no ebikes signs. I am not entitled access. Nobody is. It is given. And can be revoked as private land owners have every right to decide who does what on their land.
Tom wrote:
Similarly, do you encounter many gas-powered motorcycles?
I never see motos in that location, the only place I've seen illegal motos is other timber company land that is less developed and maintained. There is an extensive system of gated fire roads that would be great for ebikes and is far as I know they are allowed. I bet treeswarmer would love it.
Tom wrote:
How many of these ebikes would be poaching if the trails allowed class 1?
I'm not sure what your point is? 1, I dont know what class of ebike they are poaching with. They go by too fast to see and they know they are illegal so they dont stop and chat. 2. The owners of the land dont want them there. They are not allowed. Of course poaching stops when you just give in and allow it, but the other option would be for the land owner to just say nope, sorry. No more access.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11272 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostMon Dec 09, 2019 8:29 am 
Pahoehoe wrote:
They go by too fast to see and they know they are illegal so they dont stop and chat.
Then how do you see them? You don't make sense. Give up and just admit that you don't want to share. embarassedlaugh.gif

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
   All times are GMT - 8 Hours
 Reply to topic
Forum Index > Trail Talk > Electric bikes soon to be humming along national park trails
  Happy Birthday noahk!
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum