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Pahoehoe
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Pahoehoe
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 Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:40 am |
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| treeswarper wrote: | | Pahoehoe wrote: | | They go by too fast to see and they know they are illegal so they dont stop and chat. |
Then how do you see them? You don't make sense. Give up and just admit that you don't want to share.  |
Dont cherry pick quote. It makes you look stupid... oh wait...
| Pahoehoe wrote: | | 1, I dont know what class of ebike they are poaching with. They go by too fast to see and they know they are illegal so they dont stop and chat |
You can, however, see their speed, wider frame, motor mounted at the bottom bracket, wider tires, external battery, etc, etc
Hey, though. You said it yourself. You think if you cant ride your motorized bike somewhere nobody should be allowed in the area at all. Keep it up, get areas closed!
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Pahoehoe
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Pahoehoe
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Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:11 am |
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To be clear, I am not saying ebikes should not be allowed on any mountain single track.
I am saying ebikes need to be their own user group and evaluated separately for access.
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MtnGoat
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Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:35 pm |
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| Pahoehoe wrote: | | So you want no mountain bike areas? Ebike only? You cannot pedal unassisted here!
You are seriously nuts.
My opinion is that things with motors are not things that are human powered and need to be their own category and evaluated for access separately.
And poaching is huge. I see illegal ebike usage almost every ride on our local trails. Trails on private land that NOBODY is entitled access to. This poaching jeopardizes everyone else's access. |
I have no idea how you get support for exclusion of regular bikes in favor of ebikes from the argument I posted. Especially when the exclusionary arguments are what I have been opposing the entire time. It's as if you don't even pay attention to content of arguments you don't already agree with.
Separate evaluation here: No exhaust, quiet, no empirical harm to resource. Former reasons for exclusion of motorized cycles do not apply to this mechanized form of travel.
Separate evaluation concluded.
Trails which allow mtn bikes should allow e bikes.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Pahoehoe
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Pahoehoe
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Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:45 pm |
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I dont understand how you cannot comprehend that ebikes have motors and that makes them motorized, thus, excluded from non motorized areas.
Since there is a significant difference between human powered and motor powered, ebikes need to be there own user group.
Ebikes may be compatible with some non motorized areas and not others.
If you are so sure they dont have a negative impact why are you so afraid of ebikes being their own user group?
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:15 pm |
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| Pahoehoe wrote: | | I dont understand how you cannot comprehend that ebikes have motors and that makes them motorized, thus, excluded from non motorized areas.
Since there is a significant difference between human powered and motor powered ebikes need to be there own user group.
Ebikes may be compatible with some non motorized areas and not others.
If you are so sure they dont have a negative impact why are you so afraid of ebikes being their own user group? |
The conceit that mere disagreement is a sign of non comprehension won't wash.
What part of any of my arguments is a sign of 'fear'? Mere disagreement is no more evidence of 'fear' than it is one of non comprehension.
I've made the basic arguments on all these fronts already.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Tom
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Tom
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Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:17 pm |
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| Pahoehoe wrote: | | Tom wrote: | | Also, whose private lands are these and why are you there if nobody is entitled access? |
These trails are on timber company land that disallows motor vehicles, specifically ebikes. It is in the use agreement. Ebikers constantly tear down the no ebikes signs.
I am not entitled access. Nobody is. It is given. And can be revoked as private land owners have every right to decide who does what on their land.
| Tom wrote: | | Similarly, do you encounter many gas-powered motorcycles? |
I never see motos in that location, the only place I've seen illegal motos is other timber company land that is less developed and maintained. There is an extensive system of gated fire roads that would be great for ebikes and is far as I know they are allowed. I bet treeswarmer would love it.
| Tom wrote: | | How many of these ebikes would be poaching if the trails allowed class 1? |
I'm not sure what your point is?
1, I dont know what class of ebike they are poaching with. They go by too fast to see and they know they are illegal so they dont stop and chat.
2. The owners of the land dont want them there. They are not allowed. Of course poaching stops when you just give in and allow it, but the other option would be for the land owner to just say nope, sorry. No more access. |
If you are worried about access being revoked why not work toward a solution that minimizes poaching. You say the owners of the land don't want ebikes there. Why is that? Why are they OK with bikes but not, say, class 1 ebikes?
As far as my point, I was curious what types of poaching you were encountering. Doesn't sound like it's gas powered motorbikes, but something private land owners might potentially be agreeable to.
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Pahoehoe
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Pahoehoe
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Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:25 pm |
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Why are you telling me I need to negotiate with land owners to allow ebikes they dont want so that access isnt threatened by their poaching?
You should be telling ebikers to lobby for access as a user group and to protect their image by not poaching and visibly contributing to the trail resources.
Mountain bikers did this for over 30 years and it is finally paying off with the huge boom in trail building. Everyone knows if you include mountain bikers the trails will be maintained because mountain bikers dig.
It's part of the culture. Its something that has taken years to build.
Ebikes are different. They are a different user group with some over lap. They need to be their own, build their image, culture and access.
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Tom
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Tom
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Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:34 pm |
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I'm not telling you that you need to negotiate. Does the landowner not want e-bikes or has that notion been put in their head by the MTB lobby?
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Pahoehoe
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Pahoehoe
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Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:56 pm |
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| Tom wrote: | | I'm not telling you that you need to negotiate. Does the landowner not want e-bikes or has that notion been put in their head by the MTB lobby? |
They want the area to be strictly non motorized.
And there is no MTB lobby.
Most industry people are very pro ebike because it means more money.
The rational response is to treat them like their own unique user group since they are.
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Tom
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Tom
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Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:11 pm |
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Who is "they"? I'm skeptical they are unwilling to accommodate class 1 ebikes where they might be suitable.
Evergreen is not a lobby?
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:06 pm |
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| Pahoehoe wrote: | | They want the area to be strictly non motorized.
And there is no MTB lobby.
Most industry people are very pro ebike because it means more money.
The rational response is to treat them like their own unique user group since they are. |
Adding them to legal trail access where other bikes are allowed does not stand in the way of treating them as their own unique user group.
This article addresses much of what we've discussed in this thread, and notes there is a mountain bike lobby, the International Mountain Bike Association.
https://matadornetwork.com/read/electric-mountain-bikes/
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Pahoehoe
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Pahoehoe
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Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:24 pm |
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Saying that they are allowed where ever human power pedal bike are allowed is not treating them as their own user group.
Ebikers could handle some of the concerns as a group like making poaching and modifying and riding where not allowed not socially acceptable.
They could make themselves visible at trail days.
They could speak out about the proper way to overtake other users.
If they want access it's their job to make others feel like they wont be detrimental. Just like mountain bikers had to do.
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Tom
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Tom
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Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:49 pm |
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What is the "proper" way to overtake other users?
I have a feeling even if your list of grievances was satisfied it would still be a moving target for acceptance. That's ok, eventually eMTB will be given a fair shake. May take a generation or so.
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Ski
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Ski
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Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:54 pm |
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| Tom wrote: | | Evergreen is not a lobby? |
The entertainment value of some of the comments here is more than worth the price of admission.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Tom
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Tom
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Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:05 pm |
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Honestly, I don't know much about evergreen but they claim to be "the voice" of the MTB community in these parts:
https://www.evergreenmtb.org/about/advocacy
While they seem like good folks, their e-bike stance strikes me as window dressing:
| Quote: | | We are satisfied with the outcome of this initial legislation as it defines e-Bikes as bikes, addresses a critical need for urban bike commuters and gives land managers specific authority to implement e-bike policies.
This means Evergreen can now work with Land Managers to advocate for e-MTB access in places where we believe it makes sense, and where it does not threaten trail funding eligibility, existing uses, or a quality trail experience for others. |
It's been over a year since the model e-bike law was adopted. How many trails have they advocated to open for class 1 e-MTB use since then? I believe the answer is zero, but could be wrong.
Here is their "vision" for 2020. Curiously silent regarding e-MTB:
https://www.evergreenmtb.org/images/files/EMBA_StrategicPlan_FINAL.pdf
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