| Previous :: Next Topic |
| Author |
Message |
Tom
Admin
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 17857 | TRs | Pics
|
|
Tom
Admin
|
 Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:19 pm |
|
|
| Pahoehoe wrote: | | I may have drawn a comparison with not allowing mechanized travel (which doesnt nessicarily cause more obvious impact) to not allowing motorized travel, which also has more nuanced impacts.
I dont see ebikes as causing issues on the downhill sections because those are gravity driven. If you read back, you will see I said I didnt have a problem with ebikes on shuttle trails.
My biggest concern with ebikes is there are all these concerns coming from all different directions and we dont really know what it will look like in 5 years or 10 years if they are given free reign on all mountain bike trails.
They need to be classified as their own user group and conditionally allowed access to small areas/and or build new areas as we all see how it plays out.
For what it's worth, I am most worried about them on close in, crowded and heavily used systems versus bigger areas that less people use.
I also honestly think people like treeswarmer wouldnt be a problem, and its unfortunate that some ruin it for others, but it's kinda like motos.
I would support way more moto trails if riders would stay on them, but the group as a whole have proven that enough of them can't, that the destruction is huge.
The mountain biking community has worked really hard for it's current position and trust the community has in us in trail building, trail sharing and stewardship. I dont think it's fair to just legislate another user group into ours.
Let them earn their place. |
Hey Pahoehoe, just wanted to say I appreciate this reply a page back. While I may not agree with you on all points I commend you for taking the time to compose a thoughtful reply in the spirit of fostering genuine discussion of the issues.
|
| Back to top |
  
|
|
Pahoehoe
Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 563 | TRs | Pics
|
|
Pahoehoe
Member
|
Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:42 pm |
|
|
| Tom wrote: | | . I was just wondering if the e-bike haters could come up with any more trails where it might make sense than evergreen has advocated for in the past year. Which apparently is 1. |
There are currently 5 named trails (over 10 miles) on North Mountain that are opened to ebikes, not including fire roads which are also open. North Mountain is an Evergreen Project and more trails are in the works there.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Logbear
Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 520 | TRs | Pics
Location: Getchell. Wash |
|
Logbear
Member
|
Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:42 pm |
|
|
The Backcountry Horsemen of America make their stand very clear.
| Quote: | | BCHA helped sound the alarm in late June. We were quickly joined by our partners, including The Wilderness Society (TWS), the American Hiking Society, and the Pacific Crest Trail Association. We submitted a letter in late July to agency leaders that carried the support and signatures of over 60 regional and national trail- and recreation-oriented organizations, plus a listing of 30 BCH states and 196 chapters. It expressed, in no uncertain terms, our unified opposition to any change in agency policy that would authorize e-Bikes, which clearly are motorized vehicles, on non-motorized trails. |
| Quote: | | The Order does not, and cannot by law, apply to trails in federally-designated Wilderness areas. Yet e-Bikes soon could be sharing backcountry trails with horsemen. The U.S. Forest Service is also considering policy changes that would yield a similar result. Yet, by enshrining falsehoods into agency policy comes the risk of creating a slippery slope with respect to what type of machines might be allowed anywhere.
Worse of all, the Department never provided the public an opportunity to comment on this Order. It’s the result of behind-closed-door negotiations with lobbyists representing bike and electric motor manufacturers. The opinion BCHA, hikers, hunters, anglers, etc., was not sought or deemed important. |
It will also be interesting to see how effective this lawsuit is for BCHA in generating additional donations to support their mission.
“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:44 pm |
|
|
| Pahoehoe wrote: | | Who f### cares? I was sharing information about my stance on an issue related to this one. Perspective.
Calm down. Jesus H christ. |
so.... rather than provide an intelligent response and explanation, you resort to juvenile expletives...
classy.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Logbear
Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 520 | TRs | Pics
Location: Getchell. Wash |
|
Logbear
Member
|
Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:53 pm |
|
|
| Pahoehoe wrote: | | So exactly where and by whom has it been suggested that bikes (or ebikes) be allowed in Wilderness areas? |
This is meant to answer Ski's question.
Where: Congress
Who: McClintock
H.R.1349 - To amend the Wilderness Act to ensure that the use of bicycles, wheelchairs, strollers, and game carts is not prohibited in Wilderness Areas, and for other purposes.
“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 7754 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle |
|
Cyclopath
Faster than light
|
Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:03 am |
|
|
| Tom wrote: | | Cyclopath wrote: | | Are you familiar with the Cutthroat Pass and Angles Staircase trails? Those are both great fun on MTBs and cherished by cyclists. They're steep and rocky, that doesn't make trails unsuitable, it just requires care. I've hiked on a lot of trails that would be great fun on a bike, except that bikes aren't allowed. |
I haven't been on either of those trails. I'm sure there are trails that could be mountain biked and would be great fun. There may be valid reasons why they are not allowed. Perhaps more valid then those used to exclude e-bikes. I was just wondering if the e-bike haters could come up with any more trails where it might make sense than evergreen has advocated for in the past year. Which apparently is 1. |
You should explore both of those trails. Cutthroat is a few hours on foot or bike. If on foot, you can go from one TH to another in a day and still have breakfast and dinner off the trail. Beautiful in larch season.
In keeping with the logic in this thread, the only reason bikes aren't allowed on all trails is that mean old hikers hate anything on wheels. Bikes are incapable of being involved in user conflicts, and not only do they have zero impact, but they restore native ecology as they roll through. 
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 7754 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle |
|
Cyclopath
Faster than light
|
Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:08 am |
|
|
| Pahoehoe wrote: | | There are currently 5 named trails (over 10 miles) on North Mountain that are opened to ebikes, not including fire roads which are also open. North Mountain is an Evergreen Project and more trails are in the works there. |
I drove from Seattle and back to ride some of the dirt roads on North Mountain a few years ago. Fantastic views in a few places, good riding, plenty of solitude, and a fun descent back into town where I parked.
Anybody with a trail bike should ride there at least once. It's a good time.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Logbear
Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 520 | TRs | Pics
Location: Getchell. Wash |
|
Logbear
Member
|
Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:07 am |
|
|
The Centennial Trail in Snohomish County is 30 miles long and allows class 1 and 2.
I've never had, or heard of a conflict on this trail involving e-bikes.
This is an appropriate trail for e-bikes in my opinion. I'd even say class 3 would be OK. I think there are some street type racing bikes that are going faster than a class 3 could. The speed limit is the issue here. Not e-bike vs. muscle bike.
Snohomish County allows e-bikes on "paved, shared-use trails".
“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
|
| Back to top |
|
|
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11279 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here |
|
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
|
Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:06 am |
|
|
| Cyclopath wrote: | | In keeping with the logic in this thread, the only reason bikes aren't allowed on all trails is that mean old hikers hate anything on wheels. |
The "logic" used by the main anti ebike person is that they are already going where they shouldn't. Whereas acoustic bikes don't. I'd like to see some hard data for that assumption. I know of a few acoustic bikers who ride, and have ridden trails where all bikes are forbidden. Not in the wilderness, but outside. The Cowlitz trail, just out of Randle comes to mind.
Therefore, all bicycles should be banned on forest trails because a few have sinned. I have no hard data--just talked with the guys who rode where they shouldn't. Of course, it is easy to do in that part of the woods. I've hiked bits and pieces of the Cowlitz Trail and have never seen another human on it. The same goes for so many other trails in that area. I hope it stays that way.
 More rocks. This trail is located just below rocky knobs for much of the way.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:10 am |
|
|
| treeswarper wrote: | | I'd like to see some hard data for that assumption. |
Let us know how that works out, okay? 
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:14 am |
|
|
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MtnGoat
Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
|
MtnGoat
Member
|
Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:01 am |
|
|
| MultiUser wrote: | | Put another way - since impacts are similar, which trails currently open to hikers but not bikes would you open to bikes? |
None, since bikes are mechanized travel.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pahoehoe
Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 563 | TRs | Pics
|
|
Pahoehoe
Member
|
Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:33 am |
|
|
| MtnGoat wrote: | | MultiUser wrote: | | Put another way - since impacts are similar, which trails currently open to hikers but not bikes would you open to bikes? |
None, since bikes are mechanized travel. |
And ebikes are motorized.
Human powered pedal bikes are less impactful than horses, yet horses are allowed in Wilderness.
You cannot have it both ways.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MtnGoat
Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
|
MtnGoat
Member
|
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:34 am |
|
|
Horses are not mechanized.
There is no attempt to 'have it both ways'...on my part.
If mechanical horses appear, then we can discuss the matter again.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9513 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
|
Randito
Snarky Member
|
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:45 am |
|
|
| Pahoehoe wrote: | | Human powered pedal bikes are less impactful than horses, yet horses are allowed in Wilderness. |
This statement indicates ignorance about the political coalition and process that resulted in the passage of the wilderness act in 1964.
Lobbying by commercial horse packers was critical for getting the wilderness act out of committee and to the floor for a house vote and passage. Without horse packers support there wouldn't have been a wilderness act passed during that session of Congress or possibly ever.
So the technical details of whether bikes cause more or less erosion/impact than horses isn't particular relevant. Better horses than logging trucks for me.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Disclosure: As an Amazon Associate NWHikers.net earns from qualifying purchases when you use our link(s). |
