Forum Index > Trip Reports > Jordan lakes 01 sept 2019 and McClellan Butte 02 sept 2019
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kitya
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PostWed Sep 04, 2019 2:16 pm 
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Tom wrote:
How overgrown was the road walk up from the Slide Lake trailhead?  Still bikeable?

It is not overgrown at all, you definitely can bike it, though it is not very long at all.
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kitya
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PostWed Sep 04, 2019 2:31 pm 
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Brushbuffalo wrote:
Edit: I see I'm a  little  late to this verbal party.

I don't really know why this is so controversial. I thought people here were all about LNT. How is killing an animal, or making a fire - LNT?

And maybe you think killing an animal is historically accepted practice or even 'a lot of fun' or something like that, and I get that, but arguing that it is good or ethical seems beyond reasonable to me.
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Tom
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PostWed Sep 04, 2019 3:14 pm 
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I'd say it's more extreme than controversial.  Doubt anyone is going to convince you or vice-versa.  Most would agree with you in terms of garbage and poor LNT ethics, perhaps not your definition of LNT when it comes to hunting or fishing or legal campfires:

https://www.nps.gov/articles/leave-no-trace-seven-principles.htm

At the extreme you could argue picking mushrooms isn't LNT either.  I would have pulled the flags.  They're not needed in this area.
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cascadetraverser
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PostWed Sep 04, 2019 3:56 pm 
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John Muir said that, did he? Thatís worth pondering.  I guess as Tom and BB point out, the extremism in your initial post made me wince...My point is that hunting cultures have value.
I donít own a gun and love my dogs, but having worked in a rural community where hunting is THE outdoor activity I respected the huntersí wish to secure their own food source and the resourcefulness required.  Seems like the NW and the world has room for vegetarians and hunters both....
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Backpacker Joe
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PostWed Sep 04, 2019 4:16 pm 
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Tom wrote:
I would have pulled the flags.† They're not needed in this area.

Thats for sure.  LOL.

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"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."

ó Abraham Lincoln
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wade63
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PostWed Sep 04, 2019 6:15 pm 
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First off, thank you so much for taking some of that trash. I was just up there a week before you and quite frankly should have. We had a far better experience there though, nobody. But, as I agree about hunting, fishing, in particular the lower Jordan lake is a good thing for that lake, in my opinion. There are far too many fish there and from catching under nourished fish, every cast, nature is out of balance as usual when humans interfere. I do appreciate the sentiment though and your actions speak louder than words. You would have been more disappointed with slide lake. Wish the forest service had more funds to patrol these places, come on people, why are you up here if you destroy our wilderness?
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Bootpathguy
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PostThu Sep 05, 2019 7:49 am 
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kitya wrote:
Both salish people and yakima people were fishing too, but definitely not in any alpine lakes if for a simple fact that no alpine lakes had fish. This non-native fish was introduced for modern anglers and is one of the main reason of near extinction of local native frogs.

You contradict yourself.

You advocate for the native frog, but you want to ban people from the wilderness who will catch the fish eating the tadpoles of the native frog and maybe even the frogs themselves

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Doppelganger
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PostThu Sep 05, 2019 9:53 am 
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Bootpathguy wrote:
kitya wrote:
Both salish people and yakima people were fishing too, but definitely not in any alpine lakes if for a simple fact that no alpine lakes had fish. This non-native fish was introduced for modern anglers and is one of the main reason of near extinction of local native frogs.

You contradict yourself.

You advocate for the native frog, but you want to ban people from the wilderness who will catch the fish eating the tadpoles of the native frog and maybe even the frogs themselves

Every now and then this concept of a utopian balance between man and nature is put forth, but that ship sailed millennia ago (perhaps in earnest around the same time we started sailing ships). Any possibility of enjoying an undisturbed natural cycle alongside our greedy human race is long gone, we may not always agree with allowed usage but we must accept that the resources are shared and no single one of us (or single group of us) should get to decide what happens to those resources for all others.

The cougar attacks in OR this year have been interesting to follow - what factors might be influencing their behavior? Are they being pushed into urban settings by local fires (the Eagle Creek fire is cited as an example, and can be directly attributed to the actions of a human), competition for food sources? What part do we play in their urbanization (not even getting into the management strategy) and what does the future hold for them?

As much as I would love to enforce fiercely strict protections on the remaining resources in our state, I accept that it's not going to happen. It does seem a little backwards when you step back and look at both sides - I want to go visit those things and places, and they would still be there in 10, 20, 50 years ideally. Others would raze parcels to the dirt, and act like the victims or start a game of dodgeball when we ask why those things are gone for good.
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pjhorst
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PostThu Sep 05, 2019 10:42 am 
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It is interesting how timing can impact our perception.

I was with Wade63 and BigRed in the same area two weeks prior to your visit.  We were the only two vehicles.  Aside from the obvious large pile of garbage, the area appeared pretty spotless.  I wondered whether the odd pile was someone's effort of cleaning dispersed garbage from the surrounding parking area(s).  It was strangely neatly piled and appeared to be random items.  Not the way I would think someone would do a dump-n-run.

We had the lake(s) mostly to ourselves.  No music.  No noise.  Well, maybe Wade63 whooping it up as he caught 6 inchers  smile.gif

Two guys popped in late one night and back out early the next morning.  One had worked for the forest service and been in the area 25 years ago, indicating it was "much wilder" now.

I found the old, discarded forest service privy at the first lake.  Testament to different times.


I was more struck by the gear cache at the second lake, under the first/largest boulder.  Rafts, tarps, fuel canisters.  Maybe it's someones active cache?  Or maybe it's just backcountry garbage now.

I suspect there were old caches back in the day when they would float plane in -

All in all, I left the area thinking it pretty special.

Amazing how 2-weeks, different interactions and different expectations can impact our perception.
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Brushbuffalo
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PostThu Sep 05, 2019 11:18 am 
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pjhorst wrote:
Amazing how 2-weeks, different interactions and different expectations can impact our perception.

Agreed.
I enjoyed your old time film, including the 'period music.'

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Passing rocks and trees like they were standing still
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Backpacker Joe
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PostThu Sep 05, 2019 7:03 pm 
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It sounded like the first lake they landed on was "Hope" lake?  I don't recognize where that is.  It looked to me like Found lake.  They flew over Blanca and then landed on Big Granite lake.  They talk about Montana Greyling trout. I was told those fish are Alaska Greyling.  Hmm..

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"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."

ó Abraham Lincoln
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Brushwork
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PostThu Sep 05, 2019 9:00 pm 
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That was a very fun video !   Wow!  Thank you for sharing it.   Surprised how many climbers there were on Shucksan.  Very cool.

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kitya
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PostThu Sep 05, 2019 9:26 pm 
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Tom wrote:
I'd say it's more extreme than controversial.  Doubt anyone is going to convince you or vice-versa.  Most would agree with you in terms of garbage and poor LNT ethics, perhaps not your definition of LNT when it comes to hunting or fishing or legal campfires:

https://www.nps.gov/articles/leave-no-trace-seven-principles.htm

At the extreme you could argue picking mushrooms isn't LNT either.  I would have pulled the flags.  They're not needed in this area.

Well, the definition of LNT on the link you shared has a big principal about "Respect Wildlife", including protecting wildlife and only observing from the distance. I cannot think that anyone can argue that hunting or fishing constitutes 'observing wildlife from the distance', so legal or not, they clearly violate LNT in strongest possible way.

At the extreme (or even not the extreme, but just in all honesty) there is no such thing as absolute LNT. Even if we are not in the wilderness we constantly impact the wilderness by our decisions and actions around climate change, air and water pollution, etc. Definitely you are right, picking mushrooms isn't LNT either. I feel very conflicted about it. Not a great excuse, because I know it would still be better to leave mushrooms for wildlife, but I only pick very small number and we don't actually kill fungi when picking mushrooms, mushrooms are fruiting bodies of fungi and contain spores. In fact for some fungi, picking them helps them disperse spores and reproduce more, but obviously not for all mushrooms.

As for the flags, I agree they are not pretty, but if you pull them you might just create more social trails. It might be better overall to keep the flags and keep everyone on the same trail, localizing the stomping of plants.
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kitya
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PostThu Sep 05, 2019 9:32 pm 
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Bootpathguy wrote:
You advocate for the native frog, but you want to ban people from the wilderness who will catch the fish eating the tadpoles of the native frog and maybe even the frogs themselves

These are also same people who introduced the fish to begin with. None of alpine lakes had fish, if not for fishermen entertainment. They don't even survive that long in alpine lakes and need to get regularly restocked. If you stop fishing, you will also stop introducing of fish into habitats where it doesn't belong.
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Tom
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PostThu Sep 05, 2019 9:38 pm 
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Well, the folks at Leave No Trace Center for Outdoor Ethics disagree.  Here is their perspective on hunting:

https://lnt.org/hunting-ethics/

As far as flags, they are litter.  Many threads about it here so I will not try to revive that subject.
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Forum Index > Trip Reports > Jordan lakes 01 sept 2019 and McClellan Butte 02 sept 2019
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