Forum Index > Trail Talk > Another fatality on Iron Cap this weekend
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Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist



Joined: 07 Sep 2018
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BrontosaurusTheorist
PostThu Sep 05, 2019 4:36 pm 
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John Morrow's post just above checks a lot of boxes for me.   up.gif  up.gif I'm not keen on guidebooks anymore, either, "travel writers" etc (multiplying ad nauseum).  How many people per day per square mile before wildlife is seriously stressed?  No one knows, no one cares.  This issue has come up before in various threads.  I wouldn't dream of going anywhere on a major holiday, and some old favorite places appear to be so crowded I won't go there anymore.

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"There are yahoos out there.  Itís why we canít have nice things."  - Tom Mahood
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kvpair
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PostFri Sep 06, 2019 5:26 am 
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I got a little more information from an SMR friend yesterday:

(1) The body was first discovered by a FS ranger who was doing a routine patrol and was that of a solo hiker.
(2) Multiple parties thereafter reported the fatality.
(3) SMR was flown out on a helo on the weekend Sunday and the recovery happened on Tuesday.
(4) No info yet from the sheriff as to identity, no one has been yet reported overdue or missing.

Alas.
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DadFly
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PostFri Sep 06, 2019 12:23 pm 
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Before the internet....
When I was an active climber in Montana in the 70's and 80's we came to an awareness that the sport was growing exponentially and we had to take personal responsibility for preserving the "Wilderness setting and ethic".

"A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain." - Howard Zahniser"


The topic of that time was sport climbing and all its bolts. How permanent are they? How does the proliferation of permanent bolts get reconciled against the Wilderness act? So we raised the red flag. This divided the local climbing community into two camps: Bolt whatever you want and Bolt nothing in wilderness. Friendships were lost. No real impact on the proliferation was discernible at the time. Bolts were installed on routes that were inside wilderness - even on establish  free routes. One party even bolted a route through prehistoric petroglyphs (you could easily see them from the ground).

Others took the wilderness ethic one step further. On top of not bolting, we would not publish new routes inside wilderness. Thus, even though I have done literally hundreds of first ascents in the Bitterroots you can go back there today and still think you are doing the first ascent. That is true adventure! It is very different from following a route and "getting sketched" when you can't find the next bolt.

In all forms of communication there are pros and cons with respect to the impact on society. These vary by community. But there is no doubt that a huge increase in access to information over the internet leads to more use of that information. In this case we are discussing the impacts of the proliferation of information about hiking routes. How many more people visit area X because of the internet vs how many more visit due to an increase in the population? I believe they compound each other. People want to live where they can get out and do things and then they go home and report on their activities. So that's a thing.

So, if you can't find the next bolt, should you be there? Is it a right? Where is "personal responsibility"?
Should newbies be trying hiking routes across difficult terrain without trails? Is it a right? Where is "personal responsibility"?
Personally I wouldn't even take my wife on that hike from Chetwood to the Necklace valley. She would be miserable whereas I was in seventh heaven when I did it.

For me, it boils down to courteous communications in an over populated world.
There are difficulty ratings in WTA listings.
People on NWHikers should not be accused of bragging or chest thumping when they report high difficulty hikes. This is valuable information.
Climb tr's inform people-who-don't-want-to-be-climbers of places to avoid.
And so-on.

At my age I get to share my scrambled wealth of knowledge with a lot of younger people new to the outdoors. Some want to be mostly left alone to make their own mistakes while others are eager to learn.

Herein lies the information.
Will the camel drink?

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"May you live in interesting times"
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car68
Out on the skids



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Out on the skids
PostFri Sep 06, 2019 12:42 pm 
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https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/bothell-wa/vitaliy-fishchuk-8845810

Vitaliy Fishchuk.

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I'm the guy 911 calls.
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Tom
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PostFri Sep 06, 2019 9:15 pm 
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Rest in peace Vitaliy.
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Backpacker Joe
NWH Joe-Bob



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NWH Joe-Bob
PostFri Sep 06, 2019 9:45 pm 
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RIP for sure.

Im not sure Id consider THIS site social media.  For the most part social media is instantaneous.  This isn't.  You have to search this site out.  Social media comes to you!

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"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."

ó Abraham Lincoln
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Downhill
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PostSat Sep 07, 2019 9:32 pm 
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Rest in peace Vitaliy, I wish you'd had many more years of wonderful mountain experiences before you passed.

My point of view tends to track closely to those posted by DadFly.  In an age when so many aspects of our lives have been sanitized, layered in triple-redundant safety measures, and liability finger-pointing, the mountains are liability proof, and for me, that's a big part of the attraction.  Yes, experience level is a big factor but it doesn't grant you full immunity.  During my 5+ decades of climbing, backcountry skiing, and hiking in the wilderness, I've lost >15 friends/partners/acquaintances, a good number of them were highly experienced and near the highest level of skill/ability.  Knowledge and experience don't give you a hall pass.  I have personally been lucky more than once.

I'm not sure I believe that forums like nwhikers cause more damaging impact on the environment or risk to people looking to get out in the wilderness.  People who are passionate are going to get out regardless.  Yes, places like Tuck/Robin, Colchuck, Enchantments, etc are getting crushed by the hordes but I attribute that less to social media and more to do with the continually increasing popularity of these hobbies (and a product of regional population growth).  Departing from trailheads within a 20-mile radius of Leavenworth, I have made at least 6 trips this summer when I didn't see another person car-to-car.  Solitude still exists.
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joker
seeker



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seeker
PostSun Sep 08, 2019 1:26 pm 
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Yes, there are still places that  haven't been subjected to serial  reporting  with  catchy photos on social media
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RumiDude
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Marmota olympus
PostSun Sep 08, 2019 6:03 pm 
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I can hardly believe the boogey man social media got brought up in this thread, let alone be partially implicated for this tragedy.

RIP, Vitaliy Fishchuk!

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Cyclopath
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Faster than light
PostSun Sep 08, 2019 8:56 pm 
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kvpair wrote:
Are we leaping to conclusions vis-a-vis social networks leading inexperienced/unprepared people to their deaths? We don't actually know what happened here.

up.gif
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MtnGoat
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PostMon Sep 09, 2019 1:02 am 
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That bogey man is directly responsible for overuse issues at formerly little known places across the country. I doubt this is one such case with respect to the 'gram, but calling it a bogey man isn't correct either...this is a very real problem.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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DadFly
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PostMon Sep 09, 2019 8:13 am 
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Meet Jack Black

"I ain't evil. I just am."

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"May you live in interesting times"
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Bedivere
Why Do Witches Burn?



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Why Do Witches Burn?
PostTue Sep 10, 2019 1:09 am 
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kvpair wrote:
Are we leaping to conclusions vis-a-vis social networks leading inexperienced/unprepared people to their deaths? We don't actually know what happened here.

My thoughts as well.

How is the discussion of social media fueled over-use being conflated with the tragedy of this man's death?  Are people just assuming he was incapable of navigating this route and wouldn't have been there if he hadn't seen it posted somewhere?  Seems like quite a stretch given a total absence of any evidence of his motivations or knowledge of his abilities.

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Slugman
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Slower than ever
PostTue Sep 10, 2019 1:32 am 
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Someone says there are twice as many hikers, then says trip reports are to blame for there being twice as many people at certain places. Ridiculous on its face.

Bashing trip reports is a time-honored pastime here, but it is always complete nonsense. One person complaining here about trip reports once claimed they were bringing people to a favorite place of his, then  admitted he went there seven times, each time bringing others along.

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"There is a pleasure in the pathless woods, There is a rapture on the lonely shore. There is society where none intrudes, By the deep sea, and music in its roar: I love not man the less, but nature more..."  Childe Harold
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Sep 10, 2019 9:11 am 
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Seems to me the possible nonsense is due to the hypocrisy, not the fact that you're responsible for follow on impacts of your reports.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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