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altasnob
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PostFri Jul 17, 2020 8:32 am 
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If you click on the link I posted above about Wyoming attorney Karen Budd-Falen you will see some of the things on my list occurred before 2009. Also, I've tried to figure out who is behind "naturalresourcereport.com" where your 2009 story came from, but it appears to be some kind of alt-right bot machine, not a legitimate source of news. Finally, anytime a story is based on an informal study conducted by a single attorney, you should take what they claim with a grain of salt. It's not called being informed, it's called being gullible.
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altasnob
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PostFri Jul 17, 2020 8:51 am 
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Brian R wrote:
altasnob wrote:
Attorneys for environmental groups often graduate at the top of their law school class

Can you provide stats/schools? It's the first time I've ever heard this.

I am an attorney, and this is my anecdotal belief. I believe my friends and colleagues who are attorneys would agree. I went to a high ranking law school in the western US with a strong environmental law program. Most of my friends and colleagues went to UW, which is the best law school in the west not from California.

I think it's common knowledge that attorneys who work for non-profits generally make less money that private or government sector.

If a person goes to law school and wants to practice environment and natural resource law, their choices of employment include working for the government, working for the development/resource extraction industry, or working for a non-profit advocacy organization. No matter what choice, this is a very competitive field of law. They almost never hire attorneys straight out of law school. It takes an impeccable resume and years of climbing ladders to even get into the field. If you did not go to an elite law school and have top of the class grades, you have no chance of entering this field of employment. I have a lot of respect for all the attorneys in this field, no matter which side of the coin they are on.

If you work for the government, you make a pretty good salary. And if you put in your dues with the government, it is very easy to get a job with a firm representing the development/resource extraction industry, where you can make a lot of money. If you work for a non-profit advocacy organization, you do not make much money, and you will never be able to get a job with the development/resource extraction industry because of your background opposing them. You will also probably never get a job with the government. So you are stuck being an attorney for the non-profit advocacy organization and not making much money. It takes a "true believer" to go this route.

You don't have to support non-profit environmental advocacy organizations. You do not have to agree with all of their choices to file suit. But don't ever think they are in it for the money. I do not support anything the NRA advocates, but I would say the same thing about them.
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altasnob
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PostFri Jul 17, 2020 9:20 am 
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Here's some examples of those local "money grubbing environmental organizations" wrecking our local ecosystems:

-Forterra acquiring 17 acres on Anderson Island to make the largest marine park in the South Puget Sound.
-Futurewise helping land owners voluntarily remove shoreline bulk heads to improve salmon and marine habitat.
-Futurewise and the Methow Valley Citizens Council (that pesky group who helped stop the crappy, no snow ski resort from being built int he Methow) appealing Okanogan County's planning and zoning decision on the basis that it does not contain adequate provisions to protect the quality and quantity of ground water.

It's simply appalling all the lands Forterra has acquired or help other non-profits/governments acquire to set aside for habitat protection and low impact recreation. Just look at this map below. They are taking over our state!

https://forterra.org/where-we-work

Be careful treeswarper, it's just a matter of time before Forterra starts snatching up lands near Omak giving you additional public spaces to go on walks.
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altasnob
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PostFri Jul 17, 2020 11:10 am 
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Let's not stop at accusing environmental groups of filing suit for profit, don't forget about the tribes.

-21 WA tribes sued to require the state to remove culverts that block fish migration.

-Colville Tribe sued Teck mining to stop them from dumping raw mining slag directly into the Columbia River a few miles above the US boarder
.

If the tribes prevail in an environmental lawsuit, they get attorney fees, just like environmental groups and everyone else. So they must be in it for the money.

Hell, since environmental groups suing is such a huge profit maker, I propose we form the nwhikers environmental group and start suing. We'll split the profits even and all retire young. Who is in? Who should we sue first?
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Brian R
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PostSat Jul 18, 2020 2:58 pm 
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If only Seattle-based environmental orgs and residents cared as much about their own stewardship as they do everyone else's. Their excrement flows into Puget Sound a trillion or so gallons at a time at least once a year. Still, they refuse to separate their sewer and storm water systems. Like every other city in the state already does. And not a peep from folks like Forterra. Because they live in Seattle. And it's easier to lord over others than it is to look in the mirror.
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Randito
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PostSat Jul 18, 2020 3:23 pm 
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Brian R wrote:
Still, they refuse to separate their sewer and storm water systems. Like every other city in the state already does.

I'm not sure where you are getting this notion -- this page from the Department of Ecology paints a different picture -- many cities have combined systems -- some of them already have to capacity to avoid overflows during most high rain periods -- but others are still working on building to that capacity -- Everett is working of getting there by 2027 -- King County by 2030    Bremmerton is considered "under control" -- but still has 15 overflow events.

https://ecology.wa.gov/Regulations-Permits/Permits-certifications/Combined-Sewer-Overflows

Brian R wrote:
And not a peep from folks like Forterra.

Forterra's focus is land presevation -- acquiring private lands and converting them to public ownership for recreation and conservation -- what gave you the idea that getting involved is sewage treatment issues is part of their mission ?

You of course are free to form your own 501C3 non-profit organization to pursue the environment goals that you believe are more critical.
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Brian R
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PostSat Jul 18, 2020 4:34 pm 
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"Groups like Forterra," ergo environmental groups. Entiendes, si?

As for moving toward the goal of not regularly dumping raw sewage into our sound, well, Seattle hasn't taken a single step. And therein lies some pretty deep hypocrisy. I applaud other cities and counties that have taken steps to clean up their act.

What does any of this have to do with Grizzly introduction efforts in the NC? Very little--other than trying to correct some biases, assumptions and sectional comments made by the thread's most prolific poster from Alta.
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Ski
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PostSat Jul 18, 2020 4:36 pm 
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what?????

Tacoma's municipal storm water system is separate from the sewage system, and there is no practicable way to combine the two into one system - the existing treatment plants would simply not be able to handle the volume of water flowing down the storm drains.

I would guess that Seattle's municipal storm water and sewer systems are also separated for the same reason: we have a lot of stormwater run-off here in the Pacific Northwest.

If you are referring to incidents where the sewage treatment systems are overflowing and dumping raw effluent into Elliot Bay, that's not caused by the systems being separated - it's caused by the system being inadequate to handle the load - which usually occurs during periods of heavy rainfall. (One of the primary reasons the Tatsolo treatment plant near the mouth of Sequalitchew Creek was determined to be not adequate to serve the needs of the then-new "Northwest Landing" residential development just south of DuPont.)

Either way - it's conflating two entirely separate issues here and doesn't serve to better any sort of discussion about bears.

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Brian R
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PostSat Jul 18, 2020 4:38 pm 
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Ski, Seattle's system is combined. Not separate. Which is why it regularly overflows during storm events.

Ours here in Tacoma is built properly.
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PostSat Jul 18, 2020 4:46 pm 
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Really?

That's nuts.

Of course it's going to overflow then - every time we get a heavy rain.

GAH!

I just shot a note to the Sacramento "BEE" asking if there's any way they might be able to point me to that six-part series that was published in 2009 regarding the EAJA - the guy really did some in-depth investigative work.

Of course, there are those for whom it will provide little benefit:

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” - Upton Sinclair

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Randito
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PostSat Jul 18, 2020 5:06 pm 
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Tacoma does have a separated system for stormwater and sewage.  They started working on separating the systems in the 50's and were mostly completed in the early 90s.

I suspect "The Aroma Of Tacoma" that us old timers recall may have been a factor in the city's willingness to undertake the expense of providing separate systems prior to the passage of the clean water act under the Nixon administration.

Seattle's outfall pipe OTH rather than outletting into a fairly stagnant bay,  emits into a channel with very strong currents so that the sewage is dispersed in a much greater volume of water, providing less local motivation to build a more sophisticated system.
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PostSat Jul 18, 2020 6:34 pm 
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errr... you mean the Duwamish River?

turned into a giant toilet - just like the Puyallup

Randy wrote:
"The Aroma Of Tacoma"

You're showing your age there. The "aroma" was a product of the bleaching process at the Simpson Kraft pulp mill.
They stopped using that chemical about... 25 or 30 years ago (or more) and that "aroma" doesn't exist any more. (One of their chemists was a violin player for my sister's dance company years ago - we had a few conversations about it.)
If you do catch a momentary whiff of something coming south on I-5 about where the freeway jumps over the Puyallup River, it's most likely from the chemical plant right next to the freeway.

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cdestroyer
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PostSat Jul 25, 2020 7:43 am 
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this post kinda got off the track which is usual?

was going to post about griz but yalls is to busy swimmin in the sewer!!!
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BigBrunyon
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PostSun Jul 26, 2020 11:50 pm 
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several large grizz known to be looming just north of the border in certain remote locales. Saloon talk in the area is these large grizz sneak down onto US soil some times at night.

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treeswarper
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PostTue Jul 28, 2020 7:22 am 
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BigBrunyon wrote:
several large grizz known to be looming just north of the border in certain remote locales. Saloon talk in the area is these large grizz sneak down onto US soil some times at night.

They might be the ones who are stealing stuff from unlocked cars here.

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