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Kim Brown
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PostTue Jul 14, 2020 10:22 am 
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The thing is that the decision to restore grizz has already been made. It's required by the Endangered Species Act. The various alternatives are how and when that is in question.

The quashing of the current process is just that; scraping the current process that addressed the various alternatives, Action A (no action) not being among those chosen by agencies because it doesn't meet the requirements of the ESA.

This could go on for decades.

Re; locals having input; I understand Mad River is motorized because the USFS District Manager at the time and his friends wanted it motorized. Often, to avoid collusion (that might be a strong word but all I can think of right now) a District Ranger's tenure at a location is fairly short.

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treeswarper
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PostTue Jul 14, 2020 12:25 pm 
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Kim Brown wrote:
Re; locals having input; I understand Mad River is motorized because the USFS District Manager at the time and his friends wanted it motorized. Often, to avoid collusion (that might be a strong word but all I can think of right now) a District Ranger's tenure at a location is fairly short.

What proof of this do you have?  Rangers stay at a place as long as they are effective, want to, and their position lasts.  Define short.  Those that do stay, and get involved in their communities can get along more with residents and will be listened to.  Harry Cody was a good example of that.  He still is remembered fondly in that community and for the work he did to get the Cody Horse Camp (named after he died) established.  People hate being talked down to, or told how things are, when they don't have any input and the authority figure has no investment in the health of the local community.

As for the locals having a say in things, that should count more.  The person who lives and might work in Mazama has quite an investment.  Where the recreator can just go home, the resident actuall LIVES there and has quite a sum of time and money invested in their place.  Residents live and work and play and do business.  They can't return home when things get bad, they ARE home.  Your recreation is not worth losing my life's work over.

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PostTue Jul 14, 2020 1:24 pm 
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How long was Cody up at Randle?

Who was up at Packwood? Shepard?

Weren't both of them quite pro-motorized use?

I seem to recall the administration on the Naches District having been somewhat deeply entrenched there for quite a while, and the top level staff being avid motorized users themselves, contributing significantly to the still ongoing policy of the district being more "motor friendly" than quite a few others.
(Didn't Shepard take the helm at Naches after the Packwood and Randle districts were combined?)

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treeswarper
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PostWed Jul 15, 2020 7:41 pm 
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Cody was at Randle from 1988 to??  I'm sorry, but I was out in exile after 1993.  I do know that Bill Truitt was at Packwood for a long time.   The Methow Valley also had a long time ranger.  I think that Shepherd filled in at Randle along with others.   As far as favoring motorized use?  Such a little area and in the Randle case, far from the maddening crowds that it shouldn't matter. 

What happens is a district ranger or anyone else in the gubmint may get a directed reassignment if they do something bad or if their position is done away with, like when two districts are combined.   Otherwise, they can stay pretty much where they want. 

Sometimes the higher ups want to promote a person and I know of one who turned it down and was doomed but happy to stay where he was after that until retirement.  He was not a ranger but was a manager.  I would say that most of the old style rangers are gone now.  They've retired. 

Meanwhile, back on the Grizzly topic, a source of income for the usual suspects has been sniffed out. 

Enter The Biological Diversity Folks

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jinx'sboy
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PostWed Jul 15, 2020 8:21 pm 
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I knew Harry Cody, slightly.  A real nice guy!  I found his obit. He died in Nov. 2002, age 53, after a boating accident on the Columbia, while duck hunting near Wallula.

I cant think of any real long serving Rangers in the Methow.  Both Twisp RD and Winthrop RD had a succession of Rangers - most serving 5-7 years before moving on.  The two RD’s combined in 1994, and the ‘new‘ Methow Valley RD has had, by my count, 4 Rangers.  The latest, Chris Furr, began just before the 2018 fires.
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altasnob
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PostWed Jul 15, 2020 9:15 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
Meanwhile, back on the Grizzly topic, a source of income for the usual suspects has been sniffed out.

Enter The Biological Diversity Folks

How is this a source of income? You are implying environmental groups like Center for Biological Diversity only sue the government to make income? Please read the entire Notice of Intent to Sue and tell me which of their legal claims you disagree with?

As noted in the Notice of Intent to Sue, the FWS and NPS filed "a Termination Notice, abruptly announcing that they are no longer proposing to take any action to conserve or recover grizzly bears in the North Cascades Ecosystem and that the EIS process has been terminated. The agencies provided no rationale in the Federal Register’s Termination Notice as to why they decided to discontinue the NEPA process to determine how best to recover grizzly bears in the North Cascades."

That sounds like grounds for a righteous law suit to me. They are seeking "injunctive, declaratory, and other relief, including an award of fees and expenses incurred in investigating and prosecuting this action." If successful, there are no damages being requested. They are asking to be compensated for their litigation expenses. I am not sure a lawsuit has every been filed in the history of the US that, at a minimum, would not make this request. They also note that they would immediately drop the law suit if the FWS and NPS vacated the termination notice.

My money is on this lawsuit prevailing, and the FWS and NPS being forced to continue to fulfill their obligations under the ESA to reintroduce grizzlies in the N Cascades, just like the vast majority of people who commented desire.
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Kim Brown
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PostThu Jul 16, 2020 9:31 am 
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Lawsuit already in progress.

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PostThu Jul 16, 2020 9:46 am 
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altasnob wrote:
How is this a source of income?

We pay them to sue us.

Unfortunately so much time has passed since that thread was active that most of the links are no good any more.
Original article containing the most data was a series published in the Sacramento Bee.

At any rate, that's the answer to your question: it is income (by definition) and it's how "Center for Biological Diversity" keeps its books balanced.

Feel free to argue the point, but facts don't change because you don't want to hear them.

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altasnob
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PostThu Jul 16, 2020 10:19 am 
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Oh, I see. The idea that environmental lawsuits are only done as a source of income for the environmental groups, and the idea that "we" all pay for the lawsuits, has already been hashed out by the right wing nut jobs on nwhikers.

Next time someone sues for discrimination for gay rights, age discrimination, ADA accessibility, or whatever other thing the government does that prompts someone to sue the right wing nut jobs will claim the plaintiffs are only doing it for income. And since in the end, if the plaintiffs prevail in any lawsuit against the government, "we all pay for it," so whoever thinks they have been wronged and believes the government is not following the law should just sit down, take their abuse, and let the status quo go on.

The above is a ridiculous belief and is not even worth the time to respond.

It would be nice to have a higher level discussion of both the benefits and draw backs of grizzly bear restoration.

And it would nice to have a higher level discussion of whether the ESA requires the FWS and NPS to implement a recovery plan for the grizzlies, which are listed as threatened, and is the basis of the the lawsuit by Center for Biological Diversity. Any idea on another forum where I can have this discussion? Because it is meaningless to try to have a discussion with anyone who immediately casts off any lawsuit as an attempt to make an income, without taking the time to read the basis of the lawsuit and commenting on why, legally, they disagree with it.
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altasnob
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PostThu Jul 16, 2020 10:33 am 
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Also, attorney fees are awarded by the court if there is a statute, contract, or equitable reasons to justify it. The plaintiff does not get the amount they request. They get the amount the court decides is appropriate and legally allowed. This amount can be appealed by the non-prevailing party. The attorney fees are to compensate the prevailing party for the cost of litigation, since they won. It is not to make them rich.

Whether its an environmental group, ACLU, NRA, or whatever group you want to choose who sues the government, some of their budget is derived from the awards of attorney fees from suits they prevail on. But they also receive money from donations, member dues, ect.

Attorneys for environmental groups often graduate at the top of their law school class, yet their salary puts them at the bottom. They don't do it for the money, they do it for the cause.
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altasnob
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PostThu Jul 16, 2020 3:01 pm 
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Kim Brown wrote:
Lawsuit already in progress.

Where do you see the lawsuit has already been filed? I see the notice filed July 15, 2020, that says they will sue in 60 days. The ESA requires this 60 day notice period before a law suit against the government.

Anyway, with Trump in charge, it seems inevitable that a law suit will be filed. Once the lawsuit is filed, it will force the FWS and NPS to respond to the complaint and provide their legal explanation for why they decided to abruptly drop the EIS. Once this happens, I will try to get a hold of the government's response and post it here. If Biden gets elected, this will likely all be moot because I don't see a democrat administration trying to defend the FWS and NPS's decision to stop ship for no apparent reason.
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treeswarper
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PostThu Jul 16, 2020 3:45 pm 
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Yup.  Right wing nut job is right up there with the Sheeple  and libertard terms on my list of words that cause me to ignore the rants of well, whatever.

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altasnob
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PostThu Jul 16, 2020 6:29 pm 
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You posted a story about a informal study conducted by Wyoming attorney Karen Budd-Falen, who:

-has argued that grazing livestock on public lands was actually a “private property right” protected by the Constitution.
-has argued that bulldozing a road through a wilderness study area is permitted by a 150-year-old statute meant to provide rights of way to miners and pack animals.
-has argued that landowners have a right to kill more big game because limiting the number of hunting tags issued to them is a constitutional taking of their property.
-has represented Cliven Bundy in his dispute with the feds over grazing in endangered desert tortoise habitat.
-has described land-management agencies as part of “a dictatorship” intent on taking away “private property and private property rights.”
-and of course, she is now a Trump appointee.

If the above are not views held by right wing nut jobs, I am not sure what is.
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Brian R
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PostThu Jul 16, 2020 11:27 pm 
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altasnob wrote:
Attorneys for environmental groups often graduate at the top of their law school class

Can you provide stats/schools? It's the first time I've ever heard this.

The good news here is that the histrionics emanating from deep green orgs and politicos has become self-limiting. In other words, it nowadays creates a more-than-adequate backlash--so shrill over the last couple decades the general public has grown skeptical. The NC3/ALPS Kool-Aid is almost flavorless. Do they even still exist?

"Life, Liberty, Property." John Locke was a right-wing nutjob. Who knew!
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treeswarper
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PostFri Jul 17, 2020 6:31 am 
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altasnob wrote:
You posted a story about a informal study conducted by Wyoming attorney Karen Budd-Falen, who:

-has argued that grazing livestock on public lands was actually a “private property right” protected by the Constitution.
-has argued that bulldozing a road through a wilderness study area is permitted by a 150-year-old statute meant to provide rights of way to miners and pack animals.
-has argued that landowners have a right to kill more big game because limiting the number of hunting tags issued to them is a constitutional taking of their property.
-has represented Cliven Bundy in his dispute with the feds over grazing in endangered desert tortoise habitat.
-has described land-management agencies as part of “a dictatorship” intent on taking away “private property and private property rights.”
-and of course, she is now a Trump appointee.

If the above are not views held by right wing nut jobs, I am not sure what is.

Gee, I didn't have a crystal ball in 2009 so I could predict Trump and Bundys etc.  Look at the date.  Are you able to see into the future?  How?

I read all sorts of stuff.  It's called keeping informed.

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