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Joey
verrry senior member
Joined: 05 Jun 2005
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Location: Redmond |
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Joey
verrry senior member
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 Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:11 am |
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texasbb
Misplaced Texan
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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Location: Tri-Cities, WA |
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texasbb
Misplaced Texan
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Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:30 am |
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| Quote: | | DON'T improvise after you give people your itinerary. |
Ridiculous. What am I supposed to do, push ahead with the plan even if <enter any of dozens of reasons it would be stupid to stick to the plan>? My itinerary always explicitly states that I may alter my plan, not that SAR wouldn't already know that.
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Schroder
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Joined: 26 Oct 2007
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Location: on the beach |
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Schroder
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Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:56 am |
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If you're going off trail alone it's pretty irresponsible not to carry some sort of communication device. Even on-trail when it sees lower use. They just hauled out someone from Ashland Lakes who laid in the rain there for 2 days with a broken leg and there's still searching going on Vesper Peak a year later.
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Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist
Joined: 07 Sep 2018
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Location: Seattle |
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Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist
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Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:31 am |
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"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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kiliki
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Joined: 07 Apr 2003
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kiliki
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Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:43 am |
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Especially for folks new to hiking or to the area--I have no problem with these people thinking it's irresponsible to go without a PLB. Why not go with a better safe than sorry attitude? It's surprising how many people think they can use their cell phones in case of emergency.
| Quote: | | Ridiculous. What am I supposed to do, push ahead with the plan even if <enter any of dozens of reasons it would be stupid to stick to the plan>? |
It's not ridiculous advice, it's good advice. That doesn't mean that something couldn't happen that forces you to change plans (though I'm hard pressed to come up with dozens of reasons it might be stupid to stick to a plan, and that takes you on an entirely different route where people don't expect you would be). These two things aren't mutually exclusive.
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kiliki
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Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Posts: 2326 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle |
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kiliki
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Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:49 am |
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| Quote: | | Rescuers did have challenges treating the woman as her dog became protective, but rescuers were able to make a homemade harness and muzzle and got the dog to walk out with them. |
Oh man. I've always wondered how my dog or prior dogs would be in that situation.
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Joey
verrry senior member
Joined: 05 Jun 2005
Posts: 2799 | TRs | Pics
Location: Redmond |
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Joey
verrry senior member
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Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:58 am |
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This summer my wife went head-over-heels off the trail and downhill. It was caused by just a momentary lack of attention combined with stepping on the wrong loose rock. Could have just as easily happened to me or any one of us.
The good news was she only got some scrapes and bumps. We were also only 1/4 mile from the trailhead on the way out.
While we do carry a cell phone, if this had been a serious wreck where there was zero connectivity then a successful outcome would have been a much bigger problem.
We will be doing some research and next year we will be carrying some kind of additional tech to help us get a message out if disaster strikes. Yes, we understand that whatever we decide to get might not work for various reasons. But we do intend to carry something to help tilt the odds in our favor.
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:11 am |
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I don't have a PLB/InReach/SPOT device and currently have no plans to get one. If my spouse asked me to get one or my situation changed, which it undoubtedly will as I grow older, I will reconsider. Well to be frank, if my partner asked me to get one I would without argument.
I noticed in that thread that many of those people commenting were SAR personel. I think it prudent to listen to what they have to offer, but in no way think that is the final word. SAR speak from their own perspective which is different than that of just a hiker.
The financial end of this should not be underestimated. If one can afford it, then fine. But for many people, myself included, getting one of these devices means a trade-off for something else. And yes, I tire of other people with plenty of disposable income telling me what I can afford. Seems like a PLB might be the most cost effective device, but that doesn't leave a cookie crumb trail.
Additionally, there is the matter of additional weight and required attention given to using the device, especially in the case of an InReach or SPOT.
Then there are cases when a device was not able to be activated because of an accident, or it becomes lost, or doesn't have a good signal, or whatever. False positives and false negatives do occur.
One of the greatest attractions of solo travel in the backcountry is simply the freedom it offers. For me, these devices are a limit to that freedom. YMMV So I resist. Over the summer I hikerd 430+ miles of the Oregon PCT. It took me about 24 days and during that time only had good enough cell service to call my partner twice. I was able to use extremely slow WiFi a couple other times. My partner was OK with that. Because she herself backpacks and loves solitude, she understands my need to be unteathered.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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texasbb
Misplaced Texan
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 1153 | TRs | Pics
Location: Tri-Cities, WA |
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texasbb
Misplaced Texan
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Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:12 pm |
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| kiliki wrote: | | Quote: | | Ridiculous. What am I supposed to do, push ahead with the plan even if <enter any of dozens of reasons it would be stupid to stick to the plan>? |
It's not ridiculous advice, it's good advice. That doesn't mean that something couldn't happen that forces you to change plans (though I'm hard pressed to come up with dozens of reasons it might be stupid to stick to a plan, and that takes you on an entirely different route where people don't expect you would be). These two things aren't mutually exclusive. |
The advice I responded to said "DON'T improvise after you give people your itinerary," with emphasis on the don't. I think that's bad advice.
"Looks like lightning up at the pass; I could go around but SAR said DON'T change plans..." "My knees are killing me, but I need to take the steep route per the plan." "Those people said the wildflowers are exploding across the ridge, but I can't go that way..." (I won't try for dozens.  )
I'm all on board with leaving an itinerary, and in mine I try to tell where I plan to go and where I might go. But I see little value in rigid advice that ignores all the considerations outside a narrow focus.
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:24 pm |
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| kiliki wrote: | | Especially for folks new to hiking or to the area--I have no problem with these people thinking it's irresponsible to go without a PLB. Why not go with a better safe than sorry attitude? |
A lot of people, women especially, are intimidated about hiking alone. Advice like this raises the bar significantly; $300 device, possibly with a monthly subscription too. I bet most people who are new to hiking or new to the area first hear about the extremely popular trails: Ira Spring, Lake 22, etc, the ones people who aren't really (avid) hikers know. If something goes wrong, there are hundreds of people nearby.
I mean I have a PLB, so it's not like I don't think they have value.
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Schroder
Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 6722 | TRs | Pics
Location: on the beach |
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Schroder
Member
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Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:54 pm |
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| RumiDude wrote: | | SAR speak from their own perspective which is different than that of just a hiker. |
Yes, they speak from the perspective of someone who has to drop everything in their daily life - job and family - to head out in the middle of the night on a call and be prepared to spend days with little sleep or food on a search.
In the 30 years I was in Mountain Rescue there was hardly anyone out solo & those few we were called out for we usually didn't find. It's obvious from the news stories that the numbers have vastly increased. I expect that the cost of searches is going to eventually break SAR budgets and there will be changes, in the form of permits, billing and mandatory insurance to head into the hills unless people start being more responsible. A PLB or beacon is cheap insurance for the risks and the weight has become negligible on something like a Garmin inReach mini. Speaking from experience, if you're up in the mountains frequently either you or someone you meet along the way is going to require assistance at some point.
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Schroder
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Joined: 26 Oct 2007
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Location: on the beach |
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Schroder
Member
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Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:12 pm |
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| Jeff wrote: | | They speak from the perspective of only dealing with people that get lost or hurt. |
No. Volunteers in SAR are hikers and climbers first. I joined myself after someone in my climbing party died on Mt Baker on the descent. I've been involved in at least a dozen incidences where someone I encountered on a trip needed to be evacuated. I've been the subject myself a couple of times.
Yes, I'm saying if you're going solo in the backcountry off-trail and don't have the means to be located with the technology that's available today, you are irresponsible.
The easy solution also is to find a friend.
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Tom
Admin
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
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Tom
Admin
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Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:25 pm |
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You could say the same about similar gear relating to personal safety. I don't think it's irresponsible to go solo without a PLB or tracking device. It may be more responsible to carry one, but it would be further down the list and irresponsible if you carry it but not items that are truly essential.
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SwitchbackFisher
Boot buster
Joined: 24 Feb 2018
Posts: 364 | TRs | Pics
Location: Wa |
| Schroder wrote: | | Jeff wrote: | | They speak from the perspective of only dealing with people that get lost or hurt. |
No. Volunteers in SAR are hikers and climbers first. I joined myself after someone in my climbing party died on Mt Baker on the descent. I've been involved in at least a dozen incidences where someone I encountered on a trip needed to be evacuated. I've been the subject myself a couple of times.
Yes, I'm saying if you're going solo in the backcountry off-trail and don't have the means to be located with the technology that's available today, you are irresponsible.
The easy solution also is to find a friend. |
I completely disagree, proper planning and preparation can go a long ways. I spend a ton of time off trail solo and have never allowed myself to get into a bad situation because I am constantly evaluating the path, situation and conditions. Other than a freak accident like a serious injury I don't see the need for a PLB. Myself and many others cannot afford a subscription to one that leaves breadcrumbs, and if I'm injured badly enough I need it my wife will call SAR with my itinerary quickly enough that I can survive with the gear I carry until they find me, and if my injury was so bad the gear won't help a PLB won't either and I'll be dead before SAR finds me and at that point who cares. If you want to waste money have fun, but don't tell me I am irresponsible for not wasting mine.
I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9513 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:57 pm |
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| Jeff wrote: | | Schroder wrote: | | Yes, I'm saying if you're going solo in the backcountry off-trail and don't have the means to be located with the technology that's available today, you are irresponsible. |
I guess I am irresponsible for not expecting other people to be responsible for me. |
Perhaps -- is there anyone that will actually care you if you don't come back from a trip?
If nobody is going to call SAR when you are overdue -- perhaps it's NBFD -- though your abandoned vehicle at the trailhead will rob others of a parking space.
Seriously unless you are a hermit completely estranged from all family and friends, "don't search for me" isn't really an option.
Those gadgets can be useful, but viewing them as a panacea is misguided. E.g. If the Vesper peak debacle was the result of a "cliff selfie" -- A PLB would have made NO difference. A SatMsg in tracking mode would have at least narrowed the search area.
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