Forum Index > Trail Talk > Lots of info about hiking solo, PLBs and SAR
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Cyclopath
Faster than light



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
PostWed Sep 18, 2019 8:20 pm 
HitTheTrail wrote:
If you think you need tracking just use the cheaters method. Even with the safety plan you can send unlimited preset messages so just send one saying 'I'm ok' every half hour and they can track you for no tracking fee.
Thanks for posting this. A few people have already said they can't (or won't) pay the subscription fee, this is good knowledge. A wise person told me he takes his phone out of airplane mode when he gets to a ridge or a peak. If it's able to ping a tower, they'll at least have some idea where to look.

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RumiDude
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Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
PostWed Sep 18, 2019 10:35 pm 
Schroder wrote:
I assume you carry extra food and clothing and first aid supplies that you don't plan to use unless it's an emergency. We're talking about a supplement to that.
And this is exactly what I meant earlier in the thread when I wrote: "SAR speak from their own perspective which is different than that of just a hiker." At some point a person must limit how much they are going to carry and fiddle with on matters like this. I have talked with several different EMTs about their personal FAK and almost all of them have a much bigger one than the average hiker. Why? Because with the knowledge they have they just can't help themselves. Nurses with young children are some of the most likely and frequent users of the ER because every little sniffle in their child makes them think of all the awful diseases it might be and thus they react to that knowledge. In my opinion, a PLB, InReach, or SPOT falls into the area that some may think is necessary and others may deem superfluous. I have decided on the latter. On down the line I may change my mind because of changing circumstances. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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SwitchbackFisher
Boot buster



Joined: 24 Feb 2018
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SwitchbackFisher
Boot buster
PostWed Sep 18, 2019 11:35 pm 
Schroder wrote:
SwitchbackFisher wrote:
Other than a freak accident like a serious injury I don't see the need for a PLB. Myself and many others cannot afford a subscription to one that leaves breadcrumbs, and if I'm injured badly enough I need it my wife will call SAR with my itinerary quickly enough that I can survive with the gear I carry until they find me, and if my injury was so bad the gear won't help a PLB won't either and I'll be dead before SAR finds me and at that point who cares.
Isn't that the need we're talking about here? The freak accident. How would you like to lay conscious and severely injured for a day or two while SAR is trying to find you? I'm thinking about a guy that got a little off a trail and started scrambling, then fell and broke a leg and ruptured his spleen. His buddy ran out for help in the afternoon, I got to him at midnight and treated him until 5am when he could be moved a couple of hundred feet down steep terrain where a helo could pick him up and he was in an E.R. by 7. If he had been alone he would have bled out and died but would have been in severe agony until then. I assume you carry extra food and clothing and first aid supplies that you don't plan to use unless it's an emergency. We're talking about a supplement to that. Again, having a partner with you is just as good.
I do actually carry extra supplies even on a dayhike food and a bare minimum of 3 liters of water plus ability to treat water, meals warm clothes and my first aid kit is probably way larger than necessary. I can see how for those who don't have the training or preparation it can be a good tool, but I think overall it is a huge waste of money that could be better spent on building a kit and learning how to provide aid for themselves.

I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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Randito
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
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Randito
Snarky Member
PostThu Sep 19, 2019 6:12 am 
This report just in from Snohomish Mountain Rescue, she waited two days with a broken leg, just two miles from the trailhead on a fairly popular trail before another hiker encountered her and summoned help.
Quote:
Just after 8 p.m. last night, Search and Rescue and Snohomish County Volunteer Search & Rescue responded to a report of a 58 year-old female with a broken leg on Ashland Lake Trail. Another hiker came across the injured female earlier in the evening and hiked down trail, drove to the Verlot ranger station and called 911. SnoHawk10 responded and attempted to locate the female, but due to weather conditions the helicopter was unable to fly the mission. SAR and volunteers from SCVSAR prepared ground teams and hiked two miles up the trail where they located the patient around 12 a.m. She reported she had been on the trail injured for two days before anyone came across her. As SAR members were evaluating and packaging the patient, her large dog became very upset and protective over her “mom.” Eventually, SAR volunteers were able to use resources on hand to make a homemade harness and muzzle and slowly coax the dog to walk out. Around 4:30 a.m., the 58 year-old female was transported by aid to Providence Regional Medical Center for treatment. Great work by the 20 volunteers who responded to this overnight mission and navigated a tough rescue. #CommunityFirst
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=3134759989931386&id=179360692138012

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Joey
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Joined: 05 Jun 2005
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Joey
verrry senior member
PostThu Sep 19, 2019 6:49 am 
Cyclopath wrote:
A wise person told me he takes his phone out of airplane mode when he gets to a ridge or a peak. If it's able to ping a tower, they'll at least have some idea where to look.
This is exceptionally good advice and costs nothing. A few years ago I made a point of learning a great deal about cell phone calls to 911. I shared what I learned with the retired NPS backcountry ranger that wrote this guide: https://www.napsgfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/4_Cell_Forensics_for_SAR_Durkee_11142015.pdf Below is a pdf file I produced with my own tips for the smart way to use a cell phone to get help. Instead of trying to remember this stuff, I suggest you copy the text, email it to yourself, open that email with your phone and then save the text as a memo on your phone. You will then have this information at hand should distaster strike. https://mappingsupport.com/p/sar/smart-way-call-911-with-cell-phone.pdf Finally, regarding the inReach Mini. To the best of my knowledge this device determines your position using only the USA satellites (GPS) and does not use the Russian satellite (GLONASS). This is the reason (i.e. fewer usable satellites) why you need a good view of the sky in order for this device to determine your position. Your cell phone (GPS+GLONASS) will almost always produce a fairly accurate location (and accuracy value!) even in heavy forest, side of a mountain and other such places where the Mini might not produce any location data at all. Thus, if you are using a Mini to text for help, include in your text the coordinates and accuracy value from your cell phone. Question for you inReach Mini owners. If the Mini cannot see enough GPS satellites to determine your location, can you still send a text message? Or will the Mini refuse to send any text messages in this circumstance?

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coldrain108
Thundering Herd



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coldrain108
Thundering Herd
PostThu Sep 19, 2019 7:19 am 
My inreach will send the text w/o location info if it can't determine the location. It states that the GPS signal is weak, send text anyway? Or wait for better signal. I usually just send anyway if it is just a check in. I use a free preset message as my tracking bread crumb when off trail since I have the bare minimum plan. My phone GPS is much faster at getting my location than the inreach. Funny thing I was just looking at a crowd picture from a concert I went to in 1988. The thing that jumps out is how everyone is in the moment watching the show, no one is staring at a brain drain device, thinking how they can show everyone else how good their life is, they're actually living it.

Since I have no expectations of forgiveness, I don't do it in the first place. That loop hole needs to be closed to everyone.
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Joey
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Joey
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PostThu Sep 19, 2019 7:34 am 
coldrain108 wrote:
My inreach will send the text w/o location info if it can't determine the location.
up.gif

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JonnyQuest
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JonnyQuest
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PostThu Sep 19, 2019 8:28 am 
coldrain108 wrote:
The thing that jumps out is how everyone is in the moment watching the show, no one is staring at a brain drain device, thinking how they can show everyone else how good their life is, they're actually living it.
up.gif

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Cyclopath
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Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Location: Seattle
Cyclopath
Faster than light
PostThu Sep 19, 2019 8:53 am 
RumiDude wrote:
Nurses with young children are some of the most likely and frequent users of the ER because every little sniffle in their child makes them think of all the awful diseases it might be and thus they react to that knowledge.
Odd. In another forum, a doctor was warning people not to use the "irregular heartbeat beat" feature in fitness trackers. His exact words were "mechanics aren't the only people who accidently break what they're trying to fix sometimes."

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HitTheTrail
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HitTheTrail
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PostThu Sep 19, 2019 8:59 am 
coldrain108 wrote:
My inreach will send the text w/o location info if it can't determine the location.
This is exactly what happened to me last week up Ice Creek. That was the first time I had ever encountered that issue. Now, after having gotten more info in this thread I will just wait longer for it to get a better signal. Still, I think it is worth the 3 ounces of extra weight to carry the inreach mini around.

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kiliki
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kiliki
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PostThu Sep 19, 2019 9:07 am 
For those who want to stay unplugged, remember, you don't have to have it on or use it in any way, unless it's an emergency. I'm not firmly in the "it's irresponsible to hike without one" camp, though I don't mind newbies thinking that. After all, people manage to get lost on Little Si. But sure, someone that is on a well-trod trail, who has left a detailed itinerary, who has provisions to be out overnight, I understand why you'd think it's superfluous. We all didn't use to have one after all. It's just such good insurance that could just save you, your family and SAR so much grief.

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Joey
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Joey
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PostThu Sep 19, 2019 9:26 am 
A GPS chip in a cell phone, inReach, Spot, etc requires that it already have certain data in order to produce a location. That data lets the chip know which satellites it might be able to see. Often this data is referred to as the "almanac". Back in the day I had a Magellan GPS. This was long before the Russian GLONASS constellation went 'live'. The evening before a trip I would set the Magellan on our deck railing for 1/2 hour so it could load a fresh almanac from the GPS satellites. Here is a thread where an inReach Mini failed to produce a location despite clear skies. https://forums.garmin.com/outdoor-recreation/inreach/f/inreach-mini/191730/wait-for-gps----poor-gps-signal-performance/934494#934494 Maybe the above problem was due to (1) lack of a fresh almanac and (2) lack of waiting 20-30 minutes for a fresh almanac to be downloaded from the satellites. I have experimented a little bit with cell phones where (1) I knew the phone did not have a fresh almanac and (2) I was in an area of zero coverage. I turned the phone on and opened some of my own software that displays coordinates. Yup, it took about 20 minutes for the coordinates to appear.

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Bosterson
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Bosterson
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PostThu Sep 19, 2019 10:52 am 
Joey wrote:
A GPS chip in a cell phone, inReach, Spot, etc requires that it already have certain data in order to produce a location. That data lets the chip know which satellites it might be able to see. Often this data is referred to as the "almanac". Back in the day I had a Magellan GPS. This was long before the Russian GLONASS constellation went 'live'. The evening before a trip I would set the Magellan on our deck railing for 1/2 hour so it could load a fresh almanac from the GPS satellites. .... Maybe the above problem was due to (1) lack of a fresh almanac and (2) lack of waiting 20-30 minutes for a fresh almanac to be downloaded from the satellites.
I used to stick my Garmin outside the night before if it hadn't been turned on in a few weeks so it could update the almanac. But I wondered - if the unit downloads the almanac from satellites while it is running or otherwise tracking, then presumably it will be updating the almanac while you're using it. So if you turn it on at the TH and it's able to acquire enough satellites to get a signal and find your location, then presumably it will update the almanac during the first half hour of your hike, meaning that almanac-induced errors in location shouldn't be an issue later? I don't bother updating the almanac the night before anymore and haven't had any issues. (Obviously if the unit cannot acquire a signal when you turn it on, it would not be able to update the almanac as you hike, so that's still something to be cognizant of.)

Go! Take a gun! And a dog! Without a leash! Chop down a tree! Start a fire! Piss wherever you want! Build a cairn! A HUGE ONE! BE A REBEL! YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE! (-bootpathguy)
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Joey
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Joey
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PostThu Sep 19, 2019 11:09 am 
Yes, my understanding is that a GPS equipped device is always downloading bits of almanac data while the device is 'on'.

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Cyclopath
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Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
PostThu Sep 19, 2019 11:45 am 
I don't know how much utility there is in doing a GPS soak at home if you're going to drive 100+ miles to the trail the next day. I'm not saying there's none, I'm saying I don't know. My Garmin takes about half a second to get a GPS fix if I've used it lately in that area, like a daily bike ride. When I go out to the Methow or other places, it's noticably slower to get a fix, because it's looking in the wrong places for satellites. What I do is have it start searching as soon as I park. It takes a moment before I'm ready to start (put layers on, maybe rearrange my pack, or pee, or have a snack) and I might as well make good use of that time.

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