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treeswarper
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PostWed Oct 23, 2019 8:11 pm 
Malachai Constant wrote:
I notice that next year yo-young will not be allowed which could be a problem if there is another big snow year.
Like, who is the boss of the hikers? How would they, whoever they are, stop them yo yoing? I find this hilarious. Will they take away their boots? What is the "punishment" for such a heinous act? No patch for you? No stickers?

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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RumiDude
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PostWed Oct 23, 2019 8:27 pm 
Pahoehoe wrote:
What do you propose? Banning trail angels?
If I could I would regulate trail angels before regulating the thru-hikers. Yea, I would make them get a permit and follow all the rules and regs. But I seem to have misplaced my magic wand so it looks like that will have to wait.
Pahoehoe wrote:
Nobody is forced to partake in any of it. Say no. Hike your own hike. Have a burger. Hike your own hike...
You seem focused on trailside food offering. That's just the tip of the iceberg. If it were just trailside burgers and beer, that has not yet risen to problem levels. It's the rides to town and all over the place, free place to stay in town, etc, etc, etc. Some hikers do recognize that for what it is and call for what it is ... a vortex. You know what a vortex is, a whirlpool, a whirlwind, that once you get in it is difficult to get out. They are genuinely nice people wanting to help and the hikers get a smile. But over the course of 2660 miles those vortexes add days to the journey. Days that some of these hikers NOW at the end of October might wish they had back. They would be finished instead of stuck 200 miles from Monument 78.
Pahoehoe wrote:
I do not see the comparision of everest paid guide companies and PCT volunteers giving things away for free.
First of all trail angels are not PCT volunteers. They would be better described as free lance whatevers. Some actually charge for goods and services and some don't. But my point was a real demonstration of how the character of the endeavor is changed by stuff like this. Climbing Everest is diminished because of it. I think that trail angels are rapidly changing the trail experience on the PCT and have diminshed it, like the guiding companies have done on Everest. Rumi PS: I want to make a special point about supposed trail angels setting up illegal water caches, especially in Southern California. The land managers and PCTA have tried to discourage this practice. The trail angels claim they are saving lives. Their intentions may be honorable but the truth is these water caches are not needed. And they inevitably become magnets for garbage. Land managers send out people to dismantle them and the trail angels set them back up.

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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RumiDude
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PostWed Oct 23, 2019 8:39 pm 
treeswarper wrote:
Malachai Constant wrote:
I notice that next year yo-young will not be allowed which could be a problem if there is another big snow year.
Like, who is the boss of the hikers? How would they, whoever they are, stop them yo yoing? I find this hilarious. Will they take away their boots? What is the "punishment" for such a heinous act? No patch for you? No stickers?
They haven't outlawed it at all. What they have said is that if a person gets a permit starting at the border, then they can't decide to flip north on that same permit. They would need to reapply for another permit if they flip or get off the trail for any extended period of time. The PCT Long Distance Permit is an interagency permit. That means a person doesn't have to get a JMT permit. The PCT shares about 190 miles with the JMT. A PCT permit allows the thru-hiker to just use one permit for the entire trail rather than having to arrange separate permits from all the individual agencies. That's all it is. So if a person gets a permit to hike NoBo from the Mexico border but decided the snow is too deep in the Sierra Nevada and flips north, their PCT Long Distance Permit is no longer valid. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Pahoehoe
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PostWed Oct 23, 2019 9:23 pm 
RumiDude wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
Nobody is forced to partake in any of it. Say no. Hike your own hike. Have a burger. Hike your own hike...
You seem focused on trailside food offering. That's just the tip of the iceberg. If it were just trailside burgers and beer, that has not yet risen to problem levels. It's the rides to town and all over the place, free place to stay in town, etc, etc, etc. Some hikers do recognize that for what it is and call for what it is ... a vortex. You know what a vortex is, a whirlpool, a whirlwind, that once you get in it is difficult to get out. They are genuinely nice people wanting to help and the hikers get a smile. But over the course of 2660 miles those vortexes add days to the journey. Days that some of these hikers NOW at the end of October might wish they had back. They would be finished instead of stuck 200 miles from Monument 78.
Sucks to be them, then. They lacked will power, or proper planning or something.. I bet some thru hikers really needed something and were able to finish or finish earlier because someone drove them to and from town... Hike your own hike. Own your own hike. It's not the "trail angels" fault, it's the hiker not keeping their schedule.
RumiDude wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
What do you propose? Banning trail angels?
If I could I would regulate trail angels before regulating the thru-hikers. Yea, I would make them get a permit and follow all the rules and regs. But I seem to have misplaced my magic wand so it looks like that will have to wait.
How would you regulate giving people rides? You want to ban going to town? What if someone needed to see a doctor, lost something not obtainable in a trail town...? Seriously!?
RumiDude wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
I do not see the comparision of everest paid guide companies and PCT volunteers giving things away for free.
First of all trail angels are not PCT volunteers. They would be better described as free lance whatevers. Some actually charge for goods and services and some don't. But my point was a real demonstration of how the character of the endeavor is changed by stuff like this. Climbing Everest is diminished because of it. I think that trail angels are rapidly changing the trail experience on the PCT and have diminshed it, like the guiding companies have done on Everest.
Everything changes. I would say popularity and social media are the driving forces...still, you cant really compare the commercialization and greed on everest to people giving things and time and rides and lodging to pct hikers for FREE. If anything, its the opposite of Everest...
RumiDude wrote:
PS: I want to make a special point about supposed trail angels setting up illegal water caches, especially in Southern California. The land managers and PCTA have tried to discourage this practice. The trail angels claim they are saving lives. Their intentions may be honorable but the truth is these water caches are not needed. And they inevitably become magnets for garbage. Land managers send out people to dismantle them and the trail angels set them back up
I agree on illegal caches. People hanging out offering others water I'm ok with. Just leaving it illegally, I am not.

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Malachai Constant
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PostWed Oct 23, 2019 9:45 pm 
The problem I have with illegal water caches is that is that I have heard I’d militia types leaving poisoned ones to discourage undocumented immigration. If the cache is manned this is not a problem.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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RumiDude
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PostThu Oct 24, 2019 8:36 am 
Pahoehoe wrote:
Sucks to be them, then. They lacked will power, or proper planning or something..
Yea you must be correct, they lacked something. Let's hope they don't reproduce and water down the gene pool. [/sarcasm]
Pahoehoe wrote:
Everything changes. I would say popularity and social media are the driving forces...still, you cant really compare the commercialization and greed on everest to people giving things and time and rides and lodging to pct hikers for FREE. If anything, its the opposite of Everest...
Where do you get the idea that these trail angels do all this for free? Some do and some don't. But most giving rides and hosting don't do it for free. It's like the "FREE" roadside museum that has a suggested donation fee. That's how they get around any regulations concerning sanitation, vehicle inspection, insurance, etc, etc, etc. And then they bitch if they don't get what they think is enough of a "donation" from the hikers. So yea, it is like Everest. And just like Everest it has had an overall negative impact. Everything does change. There was a time when a case could be made for the need for trail angels. But that time is past. There is no need at all for trail angels. The world has caught up with Uber, Lyft, hostels, hotels, campgrounds, grocery stores, pubs, laundramats, cell phone coverage, WiFi, and all the rest. Trail angels are an anachronism that need to fade away. Again, if someone is REALLY interested in improving the PCT and the hiker experience, join a trail crew. They will not only improve the trail experience but live their own stories rather than vicariously through others. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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RumiDude
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PostThu Oct 24, 2019 8:46 am 
Last intel from Harts Pass SNOTEL was last night at 7pm and there was 8" of snow. Temps are currently relatively mild. It is going to be breezy with some strong gusts. No significant accumulation of snow for the near future. Temps will drop next week about Tuesday. I would still advise taking micro spikes (or similar traction devises) just in case, depending on what kind of footwear the hiker has. Crampons would be waaaaaaaay overkill. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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markweth
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PostThu Oct 24, 2019 9:28 am 
RumiDude wrote:
Again, if someone is REALLY interested in improving the PCT and the hiker experience, join a trail crew. They will not only improve the trail experience but live their own stories rather than vicariously through others.
Totally agree. The PCTA should really encourage this as the way to "get involved" and discourage hiker feeds, unnecessary caches, and providing services for a "suggested donation". If even have the trail angels out there decided to give their time to the trail with an organized volunteer trail crew, I think the trail would be in much better shape and better experience for all. The way most trail angels "give back" to the trail seems to me to be an outdoors community version of slacktivism. It's like those who "like" a social justice cause/political stance/whatever on Facebook but never actually contribute anything other than that a click of the mouse of tap of their thumb to addressing the root of the problem. Most trail angel actions are a quick "feel good" for some and might help an individual out, but they do not in any meaningful sense contribute to the overall sustainability of the trail. I don't think stopping this behavior is realistic, but I do think acknowledging its impacts (which Rumi has done a great job of) and suggesting other actions/ways to be involved that can truly help the trail are worthwhile endeavors. And hey, maybe I'm a hypocrite because I've given rides to CDT hikers here in Montana or pulled into a trailhead when I saw a CDT hiker passing through and offered them a beer out of my cooler or a water refill or fresh huckleberries I had picked. But I also volunteer with trail stewardship groups.

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Pahoehoe
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PostThu Oct 24, 2019 1:26 pm 
I suspect that those spending a lot of time offering rides and lodging and other things to PCT hikers enjoy their company and are potentially living or reliving a little bit vicariously through them. I still feel like its wrong to tell someone how they should or shouldn't give to the community.

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markweth
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PostThu Oct 24, 2019 2:06 pm 
Pahoehoe wrote:
I still feel like its wrong to tell someone how they should or shouldn't give to the community.
I agree somewhat, although I do think it is important to let people know the best way to give to the community as well as letting them (and the rest of the community) know about the "unintended consequences" of some of their acts of generosity. Rumi's anecdote about the hiker feed adjacent to Cascade Locks, which served no real need whatsoever and basically took money out of the pockets of local business owners who are hiker friendly, is a perfect example of "trail magic" that should perhaps be discouraged.

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Cyclopath
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PostThu Oct 24, 2019 5:36 pm 
RumiDude wrote:
Everything does change. There was a time when a case could be made for the need for trail angels. But that time is past. There is no need at all for trail angels. The world has caught up with Uber, Lyft, hostels, hotels, campgrounds, grocery stores, pubs, laundramats, cell phone coverage, WiFi, and all the rest. Trail angels are an anachronism that need to fade away.
Even if you could get service at Harts Pass, I'm sure you couldn't get an Uber into town to resupply.

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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Oct 24, 2019 5:42 pm 
Interesting to get an Uber or Lyft up the Suiattle River road to Dtown dizzy.gif

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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RumiDude
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PostThu Oct 24, 2019 6:01 pm 
Cyclopath wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
Everything does change. There was a time when a case could be made for the need for trail angels. But that time is past. There is no need at all for trail angels. The world has caught up with Uber, Lyft, hostels, hotels, campgrounds, grocery stores, pubs, laundramats, cell phone coverage, WiFi, and all the rest. Trail angels are an anachronism that need to fade away.
Even if you could get service at Harts Pass, I'm sure you couldn't get an Uber into town to resupply.
I don't think a person even needs to resupply at Harts Pass. Send a resupply to Stehekin. Six days (seven days max) from Stehekin to the border and back to Harts and out to cell service. It is generally easy to hitch a ride from Harts Pass. If going to Manning, it's even less. There really is no need to go to town to resupply.
Malachai Constant wrote:
Interesting to get an Uber or Lyft up the Suiattle River road to Dtown dizzy.gif
Again, there is no need to resupply from the Suiattle River Rd. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Oct 24, 2019 6:59 pm 
treeswarper wrote:
Like, who is the boss of the hikers? How would they, whoever they are, stop them yo yoing? I find this hilarious. Will they take away their boots? What is the "punishment" for such a heinous act? No patch for you? No stickers?
The PCTA issues a pass for the PCT which covers all the wilderness areas along the way. Without the pass you would need a permit for each separate WA. In many cases there is no ranger station issuing passes at the point the PCT goes from one WA to another. In many cases the areas have waiting lists and reservations Oregon this year will be restricting permits in Jefferson, Sisters, and other areas. If you yo-yo your permit becomes invalid and you have to reapply. Punishment is a fine and removal from the area at your expense.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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PostThu Oct 24, 2019 7:14 pm 
RumiDude wrote:
Cyclopath wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
Everything does change. There was a time when a case could be made for the need for trail angels. But that time is past. There is no need at all for trail angels. The world has caught up with Uber, Lyft, hostels, hotels, campgrounds, grocery stores, pubs, laundramats, cell phone coverage, WiFi, and all the rest. Trail angels are an anachronism that need to fade away.
Even if you could get service at Harts Pass, I'm sure you couldn't get an Uber into town to resupply.
I don't think a person even needs to resupply at Harts Pass. Send a resupply to Stehekin. Six days (seven days max) from Stehekin to the border and back to Harts and out to cell service. It is generally easy to hitch a ride from Harts Pass. If going to Manning, it's even less. There really is no need to go to town to resupply.
Malachai Constant wrote:
Interesting to get an Uber or Lyft up the Suiattle River road to Dtown dizzy.gif
Again, there is no need to resupply from the Suiattle River Rd. Rumi
If everything goes as planned, sure. But what about if an essential piece of gear is damaged or lost somehow? Tons of things could happen requiring a trip to town outside a regular supply point. Also, it's a persons own prerogative what they do, how they do it, etc. If someone is giving and someone is taking thays between them.

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