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Kim Brown
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PostThu Oct 03, 2019 11:50 am 
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Ski wrote:
^ In over 30 years of submitting comments to NPS, USFS, USFWS, BLM, WDFW, and DNR, I have yet to receive one phone call, one letter, or one email as a direct result of my entering my full name, mailing address, zip code, phone number, and email address into the "public comment record" on any project proposals.

Often an agency includes PDF's of comments, and if those comments include addresses, there's your address for anyone to see. In at least 3  NEPA projects I've browsed, the addresses were not redacted from the document.

Chances are high that this is a sophisticated process; from what I've seen of other NPS NEPA projects, personal info is redacted, or unique comments re-typed into a database record.

To be honest, the environmental community can be a nasty, back-stabbing bunch. I’d keep my personal information off of comments re: controversial projects.

When the Suiattle Road docs were available, I expected sh## to fly. Actually, 2 people against the road opening -  a NW Hiker gas-bag, and the managing director of a not for profit organization - tried to get me fired from my internship at The Mountaineers, and also my job, then at WTA, for being a "bad environmentalist." Their efforts went nowhere.

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" I'm really happy about this! … I have very strong good and horrible memories up there."  – oldgranola, NWH’s outdoors advocate.
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Pahoehoe
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PostThu Oct 03, 2019 12:38 pm 
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Ski wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
"Humans should always have top priority on public land..."

That would depend upon exactly which "public land" you are referring to.
The opening line of the founding legislation which created Olympic National Park reads "For the benefit and enjoyment of the people...", so in the case of Olympic National Park, "the people" do have (by Congressional mandate) top priority. (The "flora and fauna" are mentioned in the second line, which gives them a lower priority level.

I suppose that opens the question of what would benefit the people... conservation?  Preserving native species and habitats?  Is that more of a benefit than uninhibited use and access free from the minor risk that some animals pose?

Once they are gone, they are gone.
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treeswarper
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PostThu Oct 03, 2019 2:18 pm 
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A thank you to the poster of NPS links. 

On a facebook group I belong to, which usually has info on why you are hearing the fire dept. sirens. one of the administrators is spreading a MUST READ facebook post that is just...well....stupid and not fact based.  I'm not for the bear dumping, but I am against spreading info that really has nothing to do with the bear project. 

SURPRISE, according to the post, the North Cascades would be turned into a recreation area.  Guess they didn't know it already was.  After I pointed this out, the rumor spreader said well, they were going to put the bears in the wilderness.  After that post, I pointed out that when you get down to it, the Pasayten is already a recreation spot already.  Then the reply was made that the Pasayten was going to be turned into a Yellowstone.  At that point, I came to this thread, looked up the official documents and I've posted the link on that facebook group page with a suggestion of reading it for FACTS. 

I like living here, but it tries my patience some times.  ARRRRGH.  Am I spelling Pasayten correctly?  The mice ate my map.   frown.gif

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What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Kim Brown
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PostThu Oct 03, 2019 2:59 pm 
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By the way thread on this has already been started, with links, etc.

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" I'm really happy about this! … I have very strong good and horrible memories up there."  – oldgranola, NWH’s outdoors advocate.
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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Oct 03, 2019 3:08 pm 
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Ski wrote:
^ In over 30 years of submitting comments to NPS, USFS, USFWS, BLM, WDFW, and DNR, I have yet to receive one phone call, one letter, or one email as a direct result of my entering my full name, mailing address, zip code, phone number, and email address into the "public comment record" on any project proposals.

The only time I got a comment back was when I and many nwhikers objected to closing the Middle Fork Road at Taylor. I received a small GIF of a bull in a corral. I haven’t bothered since.

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Ski
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PostThu Oct 03, 2019 7:08 pm 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
I suppose that opens the question of what would benefit the people... conservation?  Preserving native species and habitats?  Is that more of a benefit than uninhibited use and access free from the minor risk that some animals pose?

Conservation is the practice of the USFS, not NPS. (see "Breaking New Ground" by Gifford Pinchot )

NPS is in the preservation business. (see Muir, John. )

There's no "uninhibited" use of National Park Service land. Users must comply with the regulations as set forth in the Superintendents Compendium.

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Ski
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PostThu Oct 03, 2019 7:11 pm 
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Kim Brown wrote:
To be honest, the environmental community can be a nasty, back-stabbing bunch. I’d keep my personal information off of comments re: controversial projects.

Well, Kim, your experiences have been much different than mine, I'm sure.
I don't have to worry about any "job" - I'm my own boss now - and anybody who wants to take me on is more than welcome - I always enjoy some good entertainment.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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mb
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PostThu Oct 03, 2019 7:43 pm 
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Re: bears in Olympics

I'm surprised at that. Not at the plants and small animals so much. But bears (and many of the listed animals) can easily travel that far.  https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/go-west-young-bear-a-wave-of-swimming-grizzlies-are-colonizing-new-b-c-islands


Re: public comment.
Note that it's very different now than 30 years ago. All this info is now easy to search and find.

Mind you most people are pretty easy to find with just a semi-generic name and city pair. But it's not totally obvious. (Yes, you can find my name on public comments, mostly local but some at state and federal levels.)

Just like it's not totally obvious to track me from this website to any other or my real name. That's intentional--though I'm happy to meet any of the regulars here (whenever I'm next in the NW).

Any real adversary who wants to identify me? Utterly trivial.
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Pahoehoe
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PostThu Oct 03, 2019 8:05 pm 
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Ski wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
I suppose that opens the question of what would benefit the people... conservation?  Preserving native species and habitats?  Is that more of a benefit than uninhibited use and access free from the minor risk that some animals pose?

Conservation is the practice of the USFS, not NPS. (see "Breaking New Ground" by Gifford Pinchot )

NPS is in the preservation business. (see Muir, John. )

There's no "uninhibited" use of National Park Service land. Users must comply with the regulations as set forth in the Superintendents Compendium.

Perfect.

Seems like bears fit right in, then!
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Kim Brown
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PostFri Oct 04, 2019 5:32 am 
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Ski wrote:
Well, Kim, your experiences have been much different than mine, I'm sure.
I don't have to worry about any "job" - I'm my own boss now - and anybody who wants to take me on is more than welcome

O I wasn't worried about losing my job. It's just creepy that there are nutzoid people out there and I don't want to see them, hear them, or smell their stinking carcasses, let alone them knowing my name and where I live and work.

Funny thing though. A friend and I were at a coffee shop going over some stuff about the Suiattle Road, Green Mountain Lookout, and the Illabot Road issues ( or a combination of those) at the height of the NC3/Bill Lider/Pilchuck Audubon/ WELC lawyer shenanigans. Just after I said, "you know, XXXX (an NC3 guy), lives around here, wouldn't it be funny if....." (I had seen his address on a Public Comment document) and lo! Into the coffee shop walks XXXX (an NC3 guy). It was freaky.

Coincidence?  paranoid.gif

embarassedlaugh.gif

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" I'm really happy about this! … I have very strong good and horrible memories up there."  – oldgranola, NWH’s outdoors advocate.
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Schroder
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PostFri Oct 04, 2019 4:30 pm 
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Here's one of the reports providing a basis for this plan:

A Synthesis of Historical and Recent Reports of Grizzly Bears (Ursus arctos) in the North Cascades Region
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zephyr
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PostFri Oct 04, 2019 5:11 pm 
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Schroder wrote:
Here's one of the reports providing a basis for this plan:

Thanks, Schroder.  That was very interesting, the history, the ethnology/archaeology and natural history.  It was enlightening just to read through the sightings list at the end.  Overall, it looks like they did a thorough review of many resources.  Hudson's Bay Fur Return records and First Nations accounts among others.  ~z
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Brushwork
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PostFri Oct 04, 2019 8:20 pm 
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Ok Kim, that’s freaky.   I’m not meeting you in a coffee shop,

Actually sorry to hear you were threatened. Yikes.

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mb
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PostTue Oct 08, 2019 2:42 pm 
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Schroder wrote:
Here's one of the reports providing a basis for this plan:

A Synthesis of Historical and Recent Reports of Grizzly Bears (Ursus arctos) in the North Cascades Region

That's a really cool bit of history... though I just skimmed it. Suggests bears along the Pacific Coast too, but I guess the Olympics might still be inland. Maybe the bears avoided the mountains for the same reason the native peoples did?


Back to national parks, bears, and people... here's an interesting anti-mountain-bike-but-also-maybe-people-in-general article about Montana and bears. (Good thing there's not really any MTB in NCNP. Are there any running races?)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/07/science/bears-biking-national-parks.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage§ion=Science
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BaNosser
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PostWed Oct 09, 2019 7:40 am 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
Removing species from their natural habitats have consequences that might not be obvious.

Reintroducing them will have very obvious consequences..  the deaths of hikers and hunters every year..  Black bears are cute...  Browns will tear you to shreds.. how fun..
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