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BigBrunyon
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PostWed Oct 09, 2019 3:08 pm 
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If you count feeling a presence of a large carnivore potentially nearby late at night around a fire in the dark as .5 sighting, then the number of total sightings go up. Hell, even if y'only count it as .1.

Similar to how the bigfoot guys rank the validity of sightings reports.

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Gil
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PostWed Oct 09, 2019 3:39 pm 
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BaNosser wrote:
Reintroducing them will have very obvious consequences..  the deaths of hikers and hunters every year..  Black bears are cute...  Browns will tear you to shreds.. how fun..

According to wikipedia, since 2014, black bears have killed 6 people in North America. Brown bears have killed 11.

I don't mind that grizzlies could come back. We already share space with black bears, wolves and mountain lions. And of course the drive to the tralhead can be dangerous.

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nordique
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PostWed Oct 09, 2019 8:34 pm 
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I'm in favor of bears in our mountains and especially grizzlies--since they are at the top of the animal predator list.  The top predators often keep the ecosystem in balance.  I lived in the Canadian Rockies for a couple of years--where grizzlies are not uncommon--and, knowing that they were there, kept me more alert--back before espresso was widely available!  I only saw grizzly tracks on long ski tours in winter.
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iron
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PostWed Oct 09, 2019 8:41 pm 
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what part of the ecosystem is out of balance right now in the n. cascades?

BTW: humans are the top predator.

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Cyclopath
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PostWed Oct 09, 2019 9:22 pm 
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Tom wrote:
With less than a half dozen how would they even mate? Best scenario one male and four females.

That's why they want to bring more in, because what we have isn't a self sustaining population.
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Cyclopath
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PostWed Oct 09, 2019 9:23 pm 
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iron wrote:
what part of the ecosystem is out of balance right now in the n. cascades?

BTW: humans are the top predator.

You want glaciers to be around even though people can fall in them and die, but no grizzlies because they're scary?
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iron
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PostWed Oct 09, 2019 9:27 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
iron wrote:
what part of the ecosystem is out of balance right now in the n. cascades?

BTW: humans are the top predator.

You want glaciers to be around even though people can fall in them and die, but no grizzlies because they're scary?

i don't engage with strawman.

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Ski
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PostWed Oct 09, 2019 10:01 pm 
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iron wrote:
what part of the ecosystem is out of balance right now in the n. cascades?

And therein lies the crux of it.

Exactly what part of the "ecosystem" is "out of balance" in the North Cascades?
Has the absence of the Grizzly Bear resulted in some sort of "trophic cascade", along the lines of the farce that Professors Beschta and Ripple (of Oregon State University) have foisted off on the public to sell the notion that we need wolves everywhere?

Surely there's at least one person on this forum who is conversant on this matter who can tell us in layman's terms - in 50 words or less - exactly which part of that "ecosystem" is "out of balance" and exactly how the reintroduction of the grizzly bear is going to become the panacea for all that is "wrong" with said ecosystem. (And NO, your glib citation to some 962-page *.pdf format peer-reviewed paper isn't going to cut it, Skippy... just give me the facts in plain English.)

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Gil
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PostThu Oct 10, 2019 4:12 am 
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iron wrote:
Cyclopath wrote:
iron wrote:
what part of the ecosystem is out of balance right now in the n. cascades?

BTW: humans are the top predator.

You want glaciers to be around even though people can fall in them and die, but no grizzlies because they're scary?

i don't engage with strawman.

Uh, you just did.

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Sky Hiker
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PostThu Oct 10, 2019 4:12 am 
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up.gif
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treeswarper
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PostThu Oct 10, 2019 5:51 am 
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Whitebark Pine is in decline.

Open spaces are in decline--where fireweed, grasses, etc. grow.  This is because of fire suppression.  That's a changing thing, kind of.

Salmon are in decline.

What are the extra bears going to eat?  Will they head on down to town?  Then what?

I think this is a death sentence for 10 Montana bears.

Sidenote:  I did not attend the big meeting.  There was one facebook report that said the "important people"  (meaning the state and federal folks) sat with their backs to the audience.  The local people felt a bit insulted by that, I guess.  The local paper will not have a report until next Wed.

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Pahoehoe
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PostThu Oct 10, 2019 7:34 am 
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Kim Brown wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
As long as people secure their food and respect the bears the risk is minimal.

This is only good in print. People won't secure their food and respect the bears, and that needs to be a consideration in the decision.

I never saw anyone not secure their food in GNP... I know they make everyone watch a short video when they pick up their backcountry permit.  The fine is only 75 dollars for not securing food... maybe increase it if there are issues.

NCNP doesnt have anywhere near the touron traffic Yellowstone and Glacier have.... and gnp and ynp manage to keep grizzlies from massacring humans most of the time...

I'm kind of tired of the way many people in our society think rules and regulations dont apply to them... I dont know any way to solve that problem except start fining people.
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Cyclopath
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PostThu Oct 10, 2019 11:36 am 
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iron wrote:
Cyclopath wrote:
iron wrote:
what part of the ecosystem is out of balance right now in the n. cascades?

BTW: humans are the top predator.

You want glaciers to be around even though people can fall in them and die, but no grizzlies because they're scary?

i don't engage with strawman.

Strawman?  People don't die in crevasse falls?  I'll stop carrying my rope!   smile.gif
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Cyclopath
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PostThu Oct 10, 2019 11:52 am 
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Gil wrote:
According to wikipedia, since 2014, black bears have killed 6 people in North America. Brown bears have killed 11.

According to nwhikers, there are no dangers at all in the mountains, but if grizzlies are brought in, everyone will die.
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iron
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PostThu Oct 10, 2019 12:01 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
Strawman?  People don't die in crevasse falls?  I'll stop carrying my rope!  smile.gif

ok. i will engage.

glaciers + crevasses occur ONLY for people that actively seek them, likely en route to a summit.

grizzles, if introduced, would occur possibly everywhere, impacting everyone (bear cans, regulations, bear spray, yadda yadda)

comprende?

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