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Cyclopath
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PostWed Oct 09, 2019 10:22 pm 
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Tom wrote:
With less than a half dozen how would they even mate? Best scenario one male and four females.

That's why they want to bring more in, because what we have isn't a self sustaining population.
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Cyclopath
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PostWed Oct 09, 2019 10:23 pm 
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iron wrote:
what part of the ecosystem is out of balance right now in the n. cascades?

BTW: humans are the top predator.

You want glaciers to be around even though people can fall in them and die, but no grizzlies because they're scary?
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Ski
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PostWed Oct 09, 2019 11:01 pm 
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iron wrote:
what part of the ecosystem is out of balance right now in the n. cascades?

And therein lies the crux of it.

Exactly what part of the "ecosystem" is "out of balance" in the North Cascades?
Has the absence of the Grizzly Bear resulted in some sort of "trophic cascade", along the lines of the farce that Professors Beschta and Ripple (of Oregon State University) have foisted off on the public to sell the notion that we need wolves everywhere?

Surely there's at least one person on this forum who is conversant on this matter who can tell us in layman's terms - in 50 words or less - exactly which part of that "ecosystem" is "out of balance" and exactly how the reintroduction of the grizzly bear is going to become the panacea for all that is "wrong" with said ecosystem. (And NO, your glib citation to some 962-page *.pdf format peer-reviewed paper isn't going to cut it, Skippy... just give me the facts in plain English.)

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Gil
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PostThu Oct 10, 2019 5:12 am 
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iron wrote:
Cyclopath wrote:
iron wrote:
what part of the ecosystem is out of balance right now in the n. cascades?

BTW: humans are the top predator.

You want glaciers to be around even though people can fall in them and die, but no grizzlies because they're scary?

i don't engage with strawman.

Uh, you just did.

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Sky Hiker
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PostThu Oct 10, 2019 5:12 am 
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up.gif
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treeswarper
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PostThu Oct 10, 2019 6:51 am 
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Whitebark Pine is in decline.

Open spaces are in decline--where fireweed, grasses, etc. grow.  This is because of fire suppression.  That's a changing thing, kind of.

Salmon are in decline.

What are the extra bears going to eat?  Will they head on down to town?  Then what?

I think this is a death sentence for 10 Montana bears.

Sidenote:  I did not attend the big meeting.  There was one facebook report that said the "important people"  (meaning the state and federal folks) sat with their backs to the audience.  The local people felt a bit insulted by that, I guess.  The local paper will not have a report until next Wed.

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Pahoehoe
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PostThu Oct 10, 2019 8:34 am 
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Kim Brown wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
As long as people secure their food and respect the bears the risk is minimal.

This is only good in print. People won't secure their food and respect the bears, and that needs to be a consideration in the decision.

I never saw anyone not secure their food in GNP... I know they make everyone watch a short video when they pick up their backcountry permit.  The fine is only 75 dollars for not securing food... maybe increase it if there are issues.

NCNP doesnt have anywhere near the touron traffic Yellowstone and Glacier have.... and gnp and ynp manage to keep grizzlies from massacring humans most of the time...

I'm kind of tired of the way many people in our society think rules and regulations dont apply to them... I dont know any way to solve that problem except start fining people.
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Cyclopath
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PostThu Oct 10, 2019 12:36 pm 
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iron wrote:
Cyclopath wrote:
iron wrote:
what part of the ecosystem is out of balance right now in the n. cascades?

BTW: humans are the top predator.

You want glaciers to be around even though people can fall in them and die, but no grizzlies because they're scary?

i don't engage with strawman.

Strawman?  People don't die in crevasse falls?  I'll stop carrying my rope!   smile.gif
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Cyclopath
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PostThu Oct 10, 2019 12:52 pm 
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Gil wrote:
According to wikipedia, since 2014, black bears have killed 6 people in North America. Brown bears have killed 11.

According to nwhikers, there are no dangers at all in the mountains, but if grizzlies are brought in, everyone will die.
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zephyr
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PostThu Oct 10, 2019 3:54 pm 
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iron wrote:
glaciers + crevasses occur ONLY for people that actively seek them, likely en route to a summit.

grizzles, if introduced, would occur possibly everywhere, impacting everyone (bear cans, regulations, bear spray, yadda yadda)


        Exactly.     ~z
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Brushwork
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PostThu Oct 10, 2019 5:57 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
According to nwhikers, there are no dangers at all in the mountains, but if grizzlies are brought in, everyone will die.

Well I don’t agree with that statement.   At all.

Having been conflicted, I’m now in favor of their reintroduction.   Maybe it won’t work, but that’s not a reason not to try.   

Much of the reason to have or try to have some remaining intact ecosystems are not about logic but about values.

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Sky Hiker
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PostFri Oct 11, 2019 5:22 am 
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https://methowvalleynews.com/2019/10/09/most-at-okanogan-public-meeting-oppose-grizzlies/
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BaNosser
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PostFri Oct 11, 2019 2:06 pm 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
Only if you roll in bacon grease before you go to bed...

Seriously, you aren't stupid, what's with the hysteria?

Why would a few bears in the North Cascades kill more than the 1000s of bears in the rest of North America?

Grizzlies are shy.  They avoid people.  As long as people secure their food and respect the bears the risk is minimal.

I spend a lot of time in the North Cascades..  I enjoy the thought of possibly seeing a black bear out there...  and I enjoy the comfort of knowing there aren't any brown bears..

A quick google shows 11 FATAL griz attacks in NA since 2014..  4 of them in MT and WY where griz actually are...   Yeah a couple were taken out of their tents but most were hikers or hunters.. and the poor mtn biker killed up near Glacier NP..  where my family and I were vacationing at the time and were probably no more than a few miles away when it happened...

But I guess when a few people are eventually sacrificed it will have been a small price to pay...
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Pahoehoe
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PostSat Oct 12, 2019 10:37 am 
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BaNosser wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
Only if you roll in bacon grease before you go to bed...

Seriously, you aren't stupid, what's with the hysteria?

Why would a few bears in the North Cascades kill more than the 1000s of bears in the rest of North America?

Grizzlies are shy.  They avoid people.  As long as people secure their food and respect the bears the risk is minimal.

I spend a lot of time in the North Cascades..  I enjoy the thought of possibly seeing a black bear out there...  and I enjoy the comfort of knowing there aren't any brown bears..

A quick google shows 11 FATAL griz attacks in NA since 2014..  4 of them in MT and WY where griz actually are...   Yeah a couple were taken out of their tents but most were hikers or hunters.. and the poor mtn biker killed up near Glacier NP..  where my family and I were vacationing at the time and were probably no more than a few miles away when it happened...

But I guess when a few people are eventually sacrificed it will have been a small price to pay...

Yellowstone has some statistics...

https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/injuries.htm

A few bits from their site

Quote:
Since 1979, Yellowstone has hosted over 118 million visits. During this time, 44 people were injured by grizzly bears in the park. For all park visitors combined, the chances of being injured by a grizzly bear are approximately 1 in 2.7 million visits. The risk is significantly lower for people who don't leave developed areas or roadsides, and higher for anyone hiking in the backcountry.

Type of Recreational Activity: Risk of Grizzly Bear Attack
Remain in developed areas, roadsides, and boardwalks: 1 in 59.5 million visits
Camp in roadside campgrounds: 1 in 26.6 million overnight stays
Camp in the backcountry: 1 in 1.7 million overnight stays
Hike in the backcountry: 1 in 232,613 person travel days
All park activities combined: 1 in 2.7 million visits

Quote:
Since Yellowstone was established in 1872, eight people have been killed by bears in the park. More people in the park have died from drowning (121 incidents), burns (after falling into hot springs, 21 incidents), and suicide (26 incidents) than have been killed by bears. To put it in perspective, the probability of being killed by a bear in the park (8 incidents) is only slightly higher than the probability of being killed by a falling tree (7 incidents), in an avalanche (6 incidents), or being struck and killed by lightning (5 incidents)

Much lower than the risk of driving a car!
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Sky Hiker
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PostMon Oct 14, 2019 5:49 am 
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But still a risk and how would you like to be one of those statistics?
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