Forum Index > Trail Talk > Managing toilets in the wilderness a problem
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Dharmabum
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PostMon Sep 30, 2019 10:21 am 
Above treeline as described I just bag it up and haul it out to a place where I can dispose of it properly. I always bring along a couple of those blue bags I use to PU the dogs poop. Its really not that difficult.

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treeswarper
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PostMon Sep 30, 2019 4:55 pm 
White Pass ski area has composting toilets indoors at the top of the hill. There is an unpleasant breeze on one's nether region whilst sitting, but no smell. There is a fan going under inside the contraption. I should think a solar panel could run a pooper. But would that be compatible in the wilderness? Probably not.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Randito
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PostMon Sep 30, 2019 5:39 pm 
drm wrote:
The idea that national parks can afford helicopter rides for our poop must elicit shaking heads from those who work for national forests.
The $50 annual climbing permit fee helps fund climbing rangers, waste removal and rescue operations. https://www.nps.gov/mora/planyourvisit/climbing.htm#CP_JUMP_5469325

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kvpair
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PostTue Oct 01, 2019 9:15 am 
treeswarper wrote:
I should think a solar panel could run a pooper. But would that be compatible in the wilderness? Probably not.
One could argue if mountains of non-decomposing poop are better for the wilderness or whether a solar panel powered composting toilet is better - the solar panel could also provide heat for the composting to speed up. Clearly engineering problems need to be solved in alpine environments, such as wind stability, and as was stated earlier, the whole shebang has to be easily movable to a different spot, rather than trying to redeploy the compost. It'd be such a great high school summer hack.

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treeswarper
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treeswarper
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PostTue Oct 01, 2019 9:39 am 
kvpair wrote:
treeswarper wrote:
I should think a solar panel could run a pooper. But would that be compatible in the wilderness? Probably not.
One could argue if mountains of non-decomposing poop are better for the wilderness or whether a solar panel powered composting toilet is better - the solar panel could also provide heat for the composting to speed up. Clearly engineering problems need to be solved in alpine environments, such as wind stability, and as was stated earlier, the whole shebang has to be easily movable to a different spot, rather than trying to redeploy the compost. It'd be such a great high school summer hack.
doh.gif Perhaps an Eagle Scout project.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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SwitchbackFisher
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PostTue Oct 01, 2019 10:02 am 
treeswarper wrote:
I should think a solar panel could run a pooper. But would that be compatible in the wilderness? Probably not.
I think it's probably fine, or else all the backpackers in wilderness areas that use those solar packs to charge their phones should be getting cited for it😂.

I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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joker
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PostTue Oct 01, 2019 9:11 pm 
When composting toilets aren't getting warm enough to compost they're not awesome. Pretty much the reverse of awesome in fact. It's not easy to get the poo out for flying away if you make that mistake. If you meet me, feel free to ask how I know...

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kiliki
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PostWed Oct 02, 2019 10:57 am 
Quote:
That new toilet design that they're talking about could really solve a lot of problems, though I'm not entirely clear on how it works based on the description.
There is one at the Elwha River road closure/trailhead--I just used it yesterday! Basically in the toilet hole is a slanted conveyor belt. Your pee slides forward down the belt, while solid waste would land on the belt. You pump a pedal 5 times with your foot to mechanically move the conveyor the move the solid waste or TP to the back. Hopefully money and the bureaucracy of putting them in some areas like wilderness don't get in the way of installing more. Apparently the human waste situation on the ONP beach camping areas is pretty dire and dealing with the existing toilets is a true human health hazard for the rangers that do have to deal with it.

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Schroder
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PostWed Oct 02, 2019 11:42 am 
Belts and pedals? Sounds like a maintenance nightmare.

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Kim Brown
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Kim Brown
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PostWed Oct 02, 2019 12:23 pm 
Schroder wrote:
Belts and pedals? Sounds like a maintenance nightmare.
Yes; so we've come full circle - funding and maintenance is the problem in the first place. I think even solar would be an issue; forest litter drops on the panels, moss covers it, people shoot it, and generally destroy.... I think what we need is a another well-placed volcano explosion or major flood to wipe out some roads & trails.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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treeswarper
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PostWed Oct 02, 2019 12:35 pm 
Oh come on, hikers don't shoot or vandalize stuff. I don't know if the compost toilets at White Pass the ski area are heated. The restroom is, but there is a draft you can feel when on the potty and it is just a bit chilly. I'm sure they require power to work--I'm thinking there must be a fan inside to dry things a bit. They've had other similar potties at the yurt. No bad smell. I will confess that I have never peered in to see what it holds, or the conditions. I do not know how often they must be emptied. I do not know a lot about them. I do know that there is no odor inside the restrooms FROM THE TOILETS. The compost restrooms are actually more pleasant than the main lodge dungeon restrooms. Perhaps the WTA can start a fund raising campaign. Adopt a pooper. Save the environment...the usual stuff. Coulda used another word for stuff. In the meantime, discourage people from hiking if they can't take care of their poopage.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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kiliki
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PostWed Oct 02, 2019 2:07 pm 
Quote:
Belts and pedals? Sounds like a maintenance nightmare.
These kinds of toilets are being used with success. I think "maintenance nightmare" is what we currently have with existing pit or composting (which require rangers to stir them) toilets. From the WTA article: Geoff found the solution high in the French Alps, in a toilet design that utilized a simple pedal-powered conveyor belt to allow liquid to drain off the front while pushing solids off the back. Geoff’s small Seattle-based company, Toilet Tech, imported the model and has been installing them in U.S. and British Columbia parks with promising results. There’s one at Smith Rock State Park in Oregon that’s been up and running since 2015, and Geoff estimates it will allow the park to go from emptying a 4-foot-by-8-foot vault three times a year to once every 10 or 15 years. The park reports that nearby non urine-diverting toilets have generated more than 30,000 pounds of waste in five years. In the same period, the Toilet Tech system has produced no waste that had to be disposed of.

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Kim Brown
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PostWed Oct 02, 2019 2:23 pm 
The guy who owns the company would have a nice review of his own product, and I don't doubt it's been working at Smith Rock, probably a very well maintained and priority funded front country state park. But I can't see that style of toilet being a solution in wilderness at this time.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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joker
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PostWed Oct 02, 2019 2:24 pm 
treeswarper wrote:
I don't know if the compost toilets at White Pass the ski area are heated.
The Appalachian Mountain Club was starting to use them (Clivus Multrum brand) by the early nineties in their mountain "huts" which are fully enclosed and have at least some degree of heating inside via wood stove and kitchen stoves and ovens. They seemed to work well there though I never talked to the crew (or "croo" as they're known there) about what it took to keep them happy. And indeed, no smell coming from them. The one that wasn't working that I referred to in my prior comment was in a wood-stove-heated lodge at about 6,000 feet up in the northeastern Selkirk mountains (Sentry Mountain Lodge). We were there for an April ski trip in I think their first or second season of running the lodge, and yikes it sure did smell in the bathroom!! They often don't run the wood stove there during the day as the wood is expensive (nearly all hauled up by chopper I believe) but they had the composting unit beneath the first floor bathroom, in a well insulated basement area which never got below freezing anyway. They thought they'd have enough warmth down there to keep the system happy but it turned out not to be the case. And in addition to the smell, the system was not reducing the bulk as it should have either, so it needed to be emptied into 55 gallon drums which could be flown back to town for proper disposal as it was on the verge of spilling out into the basement. That was a very nasty job and for sure worse than stirring those pit or vault toilets (per the guides who had to do the job, and who have also helped maintain pit and vault toilets in other settings). I was at the lodge again this past winter - they'd reverted to outdoor pit toilets for #2 missions but in the vein of increasingly cushy mountain lodges in those parts they DID have indoor urinal facilities, which are much easier to keep working.

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Randito
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PostWed Oct 02, 2019 2:32 pm 
kiliki wrote:
The park reports that nearby non urine-diverting toilets have generated more than 30,000 pounds of waste in five years. In the same period, the Toilet Tech system has produced no waste that had to be disposed of.
There are several ACC (Alpine Club of Canada) huts that use a system for separating urine from feces that is far simpler. The loo has two seats, one seat has stones and wire mesh in the hole blocking any solids and has a pipe leading to a drain field. The other seat goes into a barrel that gets helicoptered out once a year. (There is room for a years worth of barrels in the basement of the loo) The huts charge a reasonable nightly fee for usage ($12 CAD per person per night) , which pays for the helicopter flights and other maintenance.

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