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joker
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PostThu Oct 17, 2019 12:30 pm 
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ditto.gif  (including the pic of day thread comment - a thread to  which I'm a frequent contributor; posts about which  I always  think first, and have  more than once abstained based on related concerns)
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Cyclopath
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PostThu Oct 17, 2019 12:35 pm 
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slabbyd wrote:
MtnGoat wrote:
Someone(s) created the reports which created the impacts here...note the direct attribution.
I’m doing this write-up to give back to this fantastic online community, without which we wouldn’t have been able to do this trip.

Note the last half of the sentence in bold. Without the info, they wouldn't have been able to do the trip.

Last night at a middle school track meet in Bellingham a group of 4 men sitting behind me were excitedly talking about this Exact Trip Report, the amazing emerald lakes and how they were definitely going to get up there next year.  There may be a relatively small group of posters here but the net of viewership seems cast very wide.

Having done the Watson-Blum Traverse (and not posted a TR anywhere) one of the nicest features was the relative lack of way trails and other human impacts.  It would be a shame for it to become another Ptarmigan Traverse yet that seems to be where it's headed.  If you visit a beautiful location, where part of the appeal is that it is not crowded and still somewhat pristine, consider that the best way to maintain those attributes is to not post publicly available TRs about it.

I better do that one before it gets too crowded to enjoy!
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BigBrunyon
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PostThu Oct 17, 2019 12:50 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
I better do that one before it gets too crowded to enjoy!

Me too, see y'up there!

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Let me tell you how this works...
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catsp
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PostThu Oct 24, 2019 8:22 am 
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Crap. Read about this, but not going to get there in time.

Uluru Ban.
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ree
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PostSun Dec 01, 2019 9:10 am 
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I didn't write up a trip report on a sweet scramble in the middle of a heavily-trafficked Alpine Lakes area.  This scramble had little traces of a trail or bootpath, yet it's in the middle of swarming backpackers.  I didn't write a trip report, as much as I wanted to, because I didn't want to contribute to it being overrun, like the rest of the area.

On the same trip, in the lakes area, we were barely able to find a campsite even on a weekday.

On the same trip, we ran into a guy from Arizona who saw this alpine lake on Instagram, and he and his 4 buddies got on a plane to Seattle and blasted straight to this lake.

We counted 24 parties heading in for the weekend on our exit... and campsites were already full when we left.

Maybe it's time for a permit system.
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RumiDude
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PostSun Dec 01, 2019 2:56 pm 
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ree wrote:
Maybe it's time for a permit system.

+1

This is likely the REAL solution to overuse issues of the backcountry. Because the real issue is not Instagram "causing" overstimulation of the general public to visit the backcountry, resulting in overuse of delicate areas. The real issue is much more complex yet can be summed up by highlighting the idea of increase, multiple areas of increase.
~~Increase of Population - In some ways this is the problem, 7 Billion people and counting.
~~Increase of Suburban Sprawl - This puts a lot of pressure on the backcountry because of encroaching development. It increasingly isolates green spaces, or brown spaces if you live in the SW.
~~Increase in Recreation - More and more people want to get out in order to recreate. Additionally, there are more ways to recreate in the backcountry than before. In addition to the older traditions of hiking/mountaineering, horseback riding, skiing/snowshoeing, canoeing, and hunting/fishing, there are now mtn biking, motocycles, e-bikes, snowmobiles, heli skiing, four wheeling, off-roading, etc., etc., etc.
~~Increase of Inexpensive Travel - The increase in cheap flights really has increased pressure on even remote areas. Fifty years ago only relatively rich people could have "got on a plane to Seattle and blasted straight to this lake".  Now as ree mentioned just above, any ole random five guys from Arizona can do that. Additionally, getting to the TH is easier and inexpensive, you don't even have to buy a map. Google Earth and Google Maps are free and available even as mobile apps. Which is a great segue to ...
~~Increase of Internet Use - And this genie is not going back into the bottle. Only the very poor do not have access to the internet. And with access, all the information is available to them. And the ways in which people use the internet is difficult to control, if not impossible. It is beyond futile to control internet activity. And the more control that is expended, the more people find new ways to get around the control. And if the impact of social media is as great as some suggest it will take an unusually high rate of compliance to the suggested guidelines in order to mitigate that impact.

And there are negative consequences of trying to control social media as discussed here in this thread and as suggested by the new LNT guielines regarding social media. (Recalling earlier thread discussion, do these consequences bear the "moral fingerprints" of those promoting the new social media controls?) The first negative consequence I see is that it dilutes the LNT message. If we could just get people to pack out their trash, use proper backcountry toilet technique/procedure, campsite selection, etc, we would be doing well. But when we mix the primary LNT message with these social media guidelines,  we are in danger of severely diluting the message and ultimate acceptance of and commitment to the LNT principles.

Applying these guidelines also results in a lot of guilt tripping over TRs. Heck, right here on NWHikers we have seen our share of guilt tripping and shaming because using names of places, "Red Lines" on maps, GPS coordinates, and even simple descriptions of routes. And on FB groups, I have even seen it when someone offered photos with names of places that are already controlled access throught limited permits. Even in this thread, the shaming has gone as far as assigning moral guilt to those offering information about supposed delicate (secret) places.

As far as I am concerned, it's OK if one doesn't want to write TRs and/or reveal names and locations, but shaming and guilt tripping others is BS. And that applies to the other end of the spectrum, if one writes detailed TRs with wonderful photos including names of places and maps with red lines.  Claiming that those who do reveal names and locations are morally responsible for overuse of some areas is silly, especially when all one offers is anecdotal evidence.

As I have mentioned many times before, overuse issues are best handled by land managers. And frankly, I think we are going to see a spike in land managers stepping in to limit areas which are overused. We are seeing it now in Central Oregon. I think our efforts should focus on teaching LNT and brainstorming better ways to limit/control access to the backcountry.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Doppelganger
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 8:20 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
by putting your info in play, your responsibility goes from zero to non zero

If we are to truly subscribe to this, imagine the karma due to blabbermouths such as Spring, Manning, Beckey. Any object emitting light or sound is arguably "putting info into play". How should we assign responsibility to objects such as our sun for exposing so much information to every one us indiscriminately, or other stars or birds for the information they are "putting into play"?

Asking someone to share responsibility for your choices is unfair.
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MtnGoat
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 9:40 am 
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I don't see it as unfair to recognize the innate responsibility for your actions.

Yes, the sun has 'responsibility' for illuminating actions and stuff, but since it has no mind and no self awareness and choice,  it has no moral responsibility.

And yes, Beckey and the rest et al share responsibility too.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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RumiDude
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 10:16 am 
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Doppelganger wrote:
Asking someone to share responsibility for your choices is unfair.

It's because some people insist on having "someone" to blame for everything that they perceive as wrong or bad. And the inevitable consequence of that is the shaming and assigning of supposed moral guilt in threads like this. It doesn't matter that it doesn't make logical sense, someone must be blamed.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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MtnGoat
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 10:47 am 
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Nah, it's because acting upon choices inherently creates responsibility.

Trying to evade this fact because you don't want to 'blame' someone, doesn't change the fact. It's irrelevant wether you want to 'think of it that way', when it IS that way.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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markweth
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 11:36 am 
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Doppelganger wrote:
MtnGoat wrote:
by putting your info in play, your responsibility goes from zero to non zero

If we are to truly subscribe to this, imagine the karma due to blabbermouths such as Spring, Manning, Beckey. Any object emitting light or sound is arguably "putting info into play". How should we assign responsibility to objects such as our sun for exposing so much information to every one us indiscriminately, or other stars or birds for the information they are "putting into play"?

Asking someone to share responsibility for your choices is unfair.

I don't think it is unfair to ask people to consider the potential impacts of their actions, rather than abdicating any semblance of responsibility. It's an absurdly simple concept and can't be said any more plainly than mtngoat already did -- when you make a post on social media, your involvement goes from nonexistent, to existent. While the actions taken by others based on the information posted aren't your direct responsibility, you certainly bear at least a modicum of indirect responsibility.

If your friends are having a party and you invite an acquaintance, or better yet, a random stranger you met on the way to the party (since everyone can see what is posted online) -- providing them with the time and place of said party -- and that acquaintance/random stranger shows up and gets ridiculously drunk, throws up in the dining room, breaks a chair on accident, and engages in general buffoonery are you directly responsible?

No, not really, at least in any legal sense, but your friends will likely give you a hard time as being the guy that "invited that moron who got trashed at our party". It's kind of like that with social media and the outdoors, at least from my perspective, except that it's a lot easier to clean puke out of carpet and get a new chair than it is to rehabilitate trashed subalpine areas.
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Doppelganger
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 2:29 pm 
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markweth wrote:
abdicating any semblance of responsibility

Maybe I just wasn't seeing it, that happens in these kinds of threads - I was just trying to clarify where the lines of responsibility should be drawn, since it looked like the posts were headed towards a position of damning the hypothetical blabbermouth into the same layer of hell as the hypothetical alpenstomper. Unless the blabbermouth shared that info with the express intent of manipulating, inciting or deceiving the alpenstomper I am having a hard time putting the two in the same group - at all. Can you help me understand how one might otherwise be responsible for the poor choices others make?

The backyard kegger mini-social-diorama is a valid example of impromptu judgment, but isn't that a little wild west for you? Is that the standard you/we would like to accept (or perhaps we have come to accept, sadly enough for most of us)?
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RumiDude
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 2:30 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Nah, it's because acting upon choices inherently creates responsibility.

Trying to evade this fact because you don't want to 'blame' someone, doesn't change the fact. It's irrelevant wether you want to 'think of it that way', when it IS that way.

That's called "begging the question", which is a type of circular reasoning, which is a logical fallacy.

And it is all done to serve the need of some people to blame someone.

markweth wrote:
are you directly responsible?
No, not really, at least in any legal sense, but your friends will likely give you a hard time as being the guy that "invited that moron who got trashed at our party".

That is correct, there is no "moral fingerprint". But like you say people will "give you a hard time" regardless because some people have the need to blame someone for every problem.

markweth wrote:
It's kind of like that with social media and the outdoors, at least from my perspective

Again, just like the fellow party-goers in your scenario that "give you a hard time", blaming, shaming, and finding "moral fingerprints" social media posters is incorrect and misplaced.

There are many instances of what seems like cause and effect cases turn out primarily to be cases of correlation. This is especially true of sociological phenomenon.

markweth wrote:
I don't think it is unfair to ask people to consider the potential impacts of their actions, rather than abdicating any semblance of responsibility.

If I have a party at my house and it turns out to be a great time for all,
- then I tell my cooworkers about the party and share photos of the occasion ...
I am not responsible in any way
- if a coworker decides to have a party at their house because inspired by my account
- and then the party turns out to be awful for any number of reasons.

Trying to guess what other people are going to do with information is impossible. As long as the information is correct and not promoting unethical/unlawful behavior, there should be no guilt assigned to the information giver of others people's behavior.

There also seems to be two different kinds of problems discussed in this thread about impact of social media. One is overuse because a particular place goes viral. The other is abuse of LNT principles by those visiting. The first is a phenomenon we know so little about it seems ridiculous to attempt control, let alone assign blame. The second is pretty much straight foreward, the person that abuses LNT principles is the responsible party, however they may have come across information about the place they are abusing.

So no, it is not asking too much to consider carefully one's social media postings concerning the backcountry. I don't think it will effectively mitigate the problems of overuse of particular places in the backcountry, but I guess it can't hurt. Well except when people start castigating social media poster, trying to shame people.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Cyclopath
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 2:51 pm 
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RumiDude wrote:
Doppelganger wrote:
Asking someone to share responsibility for your choices is unfair.

It's because some people insist on having "someone" to blame for everything that they perceive as wrong or bad. And the inevitable consequence of that is the shaming and assigning of supposed moral guilt in threads like this. It doesn't matter that it doesn't make logical sense, someone must be blamed.

Rumi

In another thread we learned that even if self driving cars save many lives, we still shouldn't use them because we won't know who to blame.   rolleyes.gif
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markweth
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 3:32 pm 
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RumiDude wrote:
So no, it is not asking too much to consider carefully one's social media postings concerning the backcountry. I don't think it will effectively mitigate the problems of overuse of particular places in the backcountry, but I guess it can't hurt.

I think this is about as close to agreement as we will come. It certainly can't hurt and I believe that as long as people aren't jerks about it that it can help educate people about the need to follow LNT and encourage them to explore more of their public lands rather than just the places they see on social media.
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