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Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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 Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:11 pm |
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| Bosterson wrote: | | highly desirable areas. |
This is it in a nutshell.
Some places are "highly desirable" and people desire to see them when they learn of their existence. Whether that's from a book, magazine, or this newfangled internet thing those kids today make friends on. Get off my lawn! By which I mean Little Giant Pass.
In my day, nobody ever went to the Enchantments, but Zuckerschmuck created a demand for beauty so he could sell our personal data to advertisers.
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Kim Brown
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Joined: 13 Jul 2009
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| Schenk wrote: | | Kim Brown wrote: | | OK-WEN NF just posted a photo of fall colors at Little Giant Pass on their Facebook page.
OK-WEN NF posted a photo of fall larches at Headlight Basin on their Facebook page. |
I don't really understand why National Forest managers would do this. I can see why a National Park... |
Well even the NP's shoot themselves in the foot. A few years ago, NPS was whining about massive lineups and idling vehicles polluting the air, and over-crowding; yet they had a big marketing push for the Parks; and not just the little-known Parks - the ones already overrun, too.
And an aside about how bumbling NPS can be – they did a big inclusion campaign for under-served communities and people of color, and one of their big "visit us" ads that year featured a blonde-haired, blue eyed nuclear family – a pretty wife, handsome husband, one boy, and one girl. But that’s a different subject, sorta – just shows how marketing and conservation departments don’t speak to each other. Oh, and while I’m at it, a conservation organization featured a picture of Blanca Lake on their Facebook page. Don't think I didn't let them know about the problems at that lake. They were completely ignorant about it. So often, the marketing, social media or communications departments of agencies and organizations don’t actually hike/recreate/aren’t involved in conservation issues. They want a big bang out of their social media posts.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:17 pm |
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I love me some solitude, but I'm happy to see other people on trails for a few reasons:
(1) most people don't value wilderness or nature all that much, but that changes when they experience it. I want this stuff to be around, and we need people who value it to make sure it will be.
(2) there's an obesity pandemic, and it affects us all. (Obesity related illness costs the medical system more than smoking related illness.) I'd rather see people being happy and fulfilled outdoors than sedentary in front of a screen.
(3) people I run into on the trail all have something in common with me. Even I'm on a trail that isn't heavily used and run into another person, it's almost always a pleasant encounter.
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markweth
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Joined: 08 Feb 2017
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Location: Montana |
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markweth
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Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:46 am |
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| Cyclopath wrote: | | (1) most people don't value wilderness or nature all that much, but that changes when they experience it. I want this stuff to be around, and we need people who value it to make sure it will be. |
Although this seems like it would be the case, it actually isn't as closely correlated as we would like to think. This article provides a sobering overview of the studies done on this topic:
https://www.hcn.org/issues/50.8/recreation-your-stoke-wont-save-us
"The pair’s findings, published in 1975 in the journal Rural Sociology, were mixed. On the whole, outdoor recreation was only weakly correlated with environmental concern, and even this depended on the type of recreation and the particular environmental problem."
"On balance, a 2009 review in the Journal of Experiential Education decided that the jury was still out: “Whether a person recreates in the outdoors does not alone predict his or her environmental attitudes.”
Experiencing wilderness certainly leads to some people valuing it, but I suspect that the positive impact from that change are vastly disproportionate to the impact on wilderness areas from the visitors who only go to the spots they see on social media and are ignorant about LNT practices.
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Gil
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Joined: 29 Sep 2004
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Gil
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Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:56 am |
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I was wondering why there were so many cars at the Little Giant trailhead on Saturday.
Friends help the miles go easier.
Klahini
Friends help the miles go easier.
Klahini
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:31 pm |
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| markweth wrote: | | visitors who only go to the spots they see on social media and are ignorant about LNT practices. |
Who are those people?
Just as it is difficult sussing out who is an "appreciative" outdoor recreationist and who is "consumptive" outdoor recreationist and what is their attitude towards environmental issues and LNT, it is difficult to quantify this beast "who only go to spots they see on social media." I am not even sure there is such a beast. We don't know what impact social media has on the backcountry in general and our secret places in particular. All we have is anecdote. I am not even sure we will ever have anything more than anecdote because these sorts of issues are so difficult to study with any precision.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9513 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:37 pm |
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| markweth wrote: | | Outdoor recreation was only weakly correlated with environmental concern, and even this depended on the type of recreation |
Yup -- off road vehicle riding (motorcycles and ATVs) is considered outdoor recreation and those folks are concerned about too much environmental regulation.
"Outdoor Recreation" is a really broad term -- wouldn't that include soccer, baseball and football ?
Three kinds of lies: Lies, Dammed Lies and Statistics.
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markweth
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Joined: 08 Feb 2017
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Location: Montana |
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markweth
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Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:38 pm |
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| RumiDude wrote: | | markweth wrote: | | visitors who only go to the spots they see on social media and are ignorant about LNT practices. |
Who are those people? |
Well . . . they're the people that see a hiking destination on social media and then go there without doing any research before hand or looking at other places to go. And they don't really know basic LNT -- like not playing their speaker on the trail, not having their dog off leash where it's not allowed, not having campfires where they are restricted, and not knowing to bury their poop in a cathole and properly dispose of toilet paper. It borders on circular reasoning, but the people I'm describing (albeit in somewhat broad strokes) are exactly that -- the people who do (or don't do) what I am describing.
| RumiDude wrote: | | We don't know what impact social media has on the backcountry in general and our secret places in particular. |
This is absolutely untrue. We know exactly what impact social media has in many instances -- namely huge spikes in visitor use in areas not equipped to accommodate it. Resulting in impacts to fragile landscapes, litter, human waste, loss of solitude, etc.. There are dozens of articles that describe the impacts here:
https://8thlnt.wordpress.com/
I'm not really sure what data you need that will allow you to see the striking connection between social media hyping up various spots and those spots quickly seeing visitation beyond their carrying capacity. I think that the overwhelming collection of anecdotes from various public lands officials and visitors and the many cases of direct cause-and-effect is more than enough to justify making the connection.
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Damian
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Joined: 18 Dec 2001
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Damian
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Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:39 pm |
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| markweth wrote: | | then go there without doing any research before hand or looking at other places to go. And they don't really know basic LNT -- like not playing their speaker on the trail, not having their dog off leash where it's not allowed, not having campfires where they are restricted, and not knowing to bury their poop in a cathole and properly dispose of toilet paper. |
Well there was plenty of all of this decades before the advent of social media. In the 60's and 70's many parts of the ALW was as mess of garbage and dung. (Harvey Manning's words)
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:44 pm |
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| markweth wrote: | | RumiDude wrote: | | markweth wrote: | | visitors who only go to the spots they see on social media and are ignorant about LNT practices. |
Who are those people? |
Well . . . they're the people that see a hiking destination on social media and then go there without doing any research before hand or looking at other places to go. And they don't really know basic LNT -- like not playing their speaker on the trail, not having their dog off leash where it's not allowed, not having campfires where they are restricted, and not knowing to bury their poop in a cathole and properly dispose of toilet paper. It borders on circular reasoning, but the people I'm describing (albeit in somewhat broad strokes) are exactly that -- the people who do (or don't do) what I am describing. |
#1 How do you know they go there without considering on other places? Let me answer for you, you don't!
#2 How do you know these people don't know basic LNT? Let me again answer for you, you don't!
You have constructed in your imagination this composite of a person whom you deem the culprit for the overcrowding and overuse and poor backcountry behavior. You probably imagine what kind of vehicle they drive, where they live, what work they do, and maybe even what they have for breakfast. But you don't know really.
| markweth wrote: | | RumiDude wrote: | | We don't know what impact social media has on the backcountry in general and our secret places in particular. |
This is absolutely untrue. We know exactly what impact social media has in many instances -- namely huge spikes in visitor use in areas not equipped to accommodate it. Resulting in impacts to fragile landscapes, litter, human waste, loss of solitude, etc.. There are dozens of articles that describe the impacts here:
https://8thlnt.wordpress.com/ |
Almost every bit of that is anecdote.
| markweth wrote: | | I'm not really sure what data you need that will allow you to see the striking connection between social media hyping up various spots and those spots quickly seeing visitation beyond their carrying capacity. I think that the overwhelming collection of anecdotes from various public lands officials and visitors and the many cases of direct cause-and-effect is more than enough to justify making the connection. |
Something to keep in mind, coorelation is not causation.
Without real comprehensive data on backcountry us we are left to our best guesses. Unfortunately we have learned in the past our best guesses are almost never correct. Instead our guesses are influenced by our own inner biases and suggestions by others. Heck, I'm not denying your researched data because you don't have any researched data to back up your claims about the effects of social media.
How much of the problems of overuse are a simple result of increase in backcountry recreationists? Same for increase in bad behavior and ignoring of LNT. There's simply waaaaay many more people out there than just five years ago. And of the increase in numbers, are they more or less inclined towards LNT than previous users?
The question of how to protect our backcountry from abuse and overuse is complex. The workable solutions most likely will involve land managers limiting access to more and more places.
Rumi
PS: The article from HCN, Your Stoke Won't Save Us was about broad environmental issues rather than backcountry behavior.
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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mb
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Joined: 11 Aug 2002
Posts: 507 | TRs | Pics
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mb
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Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:09 pm |
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| RumiDude wrote: | | #1 How do you know they go there without considering on other places? Let me answer for you, you don't! |
I know people like this.
Simple as that.
They see pretty, and they *like* to follow the herd. Sometimes to be popular. Sometimes because it's vetted. Sometimes because they are afraid to go to de-populated places.
Without question there are many many people like this.
I have also used things like this as guides to where I should go, though I'm quite capable of identifying other locations and don't care to follow the herd.
I have also helped... create publicity around places which are cool to visit. More than just social media (being in the main newspaper was the big driver). But it's real. From basically zero people to dozens of people every day for a while. Mind you this is in a places which don't really have capacity issues. But to be sure, I'm not 100% sure it was the right thing to do, because for my own selfish needs I want just enough people to maintain it and no more, because crowding causes issues too. And increases the likleyhood of a few people with poor behavior.
I'm not sure why you want to deny this is an issue. Is it the largest issue? Is it manageable? Is it good for long term advocates for quality outdoor issues? Those are all interesting and hard to answer question. As is "how great is the impact". But there is no question that the impact is real.
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 7745 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:22 pm |
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| markweth wrote: | | Although this seems like it would be the case, it actually isn't as closely correlated as we would like to think. This article provides a sobering overview of the studies done on this topic:
https://www.hcn.org/issues/50.8/recreation-your-stoke-wont-save-us
"The pair’s findings, published in 1975 in the journal Rural Sociology, were mixed. On the whole, outdoor recreation was only weakly correlated with environmental concern, and even this depended on the type of recreation and the particular environmental problem."
"On balance, a 2009 review in the Journal of Experiential Education decided that the jury was still out: “Whether a person recreates in the outdoors does not alone predict his or her environmental attitudes.”
Experiencing wilderness certainly leads to some people valuing it, but I suspect that the positive impact from that change are vastly disproportionate to the impact on wilderness areas from the visitors who only go to the spots they see on social media and are ignorant about LNT practices. |
Thanks for posting that. One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions. For what it's worth, I read the article and basically after with most if it.
But let's turn this around:
Of all the people who value wilderness and want to preserve it, what % of them haven't gone out and experienced it first hand?
In other words, not everyone who goes hiking regularly will care about the places they hike in, but the vast majority of people who care about these places came to feel that way through hiking, climbing, cycling, etc.
How many other paths are there to caring about preservation?
I'm not saying nobody does just because, or for ethical or philosophical reasons, but for every one of those I'll show you a thousand people who do because they learned first hand to appreciate nature.
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Cyclopath
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Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Cyclopath
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Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:23 pm |
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| RandyHiker wrote: | | Yup -- off road vehicle riding (motorcycles and ATVs) is considered outdoor recreation and those folks are concerned about too much environmental regulation.
"Outdoor Recreation" is a really broad term -- wouldn't that include soccer, baseball and football ?
Three kinds of lies: Lies, Dammed Lies and Statistics. |
You're right, people who enjoy riding ATVs in beautiful natural settings want to see those places paved over and turned into Walmart parking lots. More people would want to preserve wild places if we banned hiking and everybody recreated at waterslides and theme parks instead.
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Cyclopath
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Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
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Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:38 pm |
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Well, crap. Now everybody's going to hike the Heather/Maple Pass loop. And King 5 is to blame.
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Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist
Joined: 07 Sep 2018
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Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist
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Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:00 am |
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| Cyclopath wrote: | | Well, crap. Now everybody's going to hike the Heather/Maple Pass loop. |
This is a "thing" now, for weddings. I saw similar pics taken at the Big Four Ice Caves. Maybe Banff, Alberta is to blame. But BNP scenics are easily had from any number of hotels, ski resort roads, and etc. I'm waiting to see one at the rim of an active volcano with full wedding regalia. 
"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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