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joker
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PostFri Oct 11, 2019 1:46 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
My mom taught me to share.

My mom taught me to share too. Of course such teachings must not merely be memorized in simplistic form, but must be learned in context. My mom also taught me to save, for instance - including  not to  just give away *all* my money, but to be generous philanthropically nonetheless. Most of us have learned the  wisdom of both "haste makes waste" and "he who hesitates is lost." Context of  course matters as to which is "correct."

I still post photos with location labels as well as trip reports. I simply think about whether and when to do so in a more informed way than I used to, based on having seen the impacts of my own as well as others' reports over about  two decades now. I also invest more time in patiently sharing basics to help beginners than I used to, including for instance repeatedly answering the  same old questions on WH&C, in the belief that we need to help such forums become more fully mature "on-ramps to the outdoors." They are us.
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RumiDude
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Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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PostFri Oct 11, 2019 1:50 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
MtnGoat wrote:
Just because it's 'all over the internet' does not remove *your* moral fingerprints when *you* do it.

What's the moral fingerprint of helping fellow hikers?

For real!  I think MtnGoat skipped several steps in his moral reasoning.  *bigethicsfailgrins*

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Tom
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PostFri Oct 11, 2019 2:02 pm 
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The parallels to the global warming thread are striking.
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MtnGoat
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PostFri Oct 11, 2019 7:37 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
What's the moral fingerprint of helping fellow hikers?

My mom taught me to share.

The moral fingerprint is that their impacts accrue to you.

Sharing is great, but it still comes with impacts.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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PostFri Oct 11, 2019 7:39 pm 
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RumiDude wrote:
For real!  I think MtnGoat skipped several steps in his moral reasoning.  *bigethicsfailgrins*

Rumi

I'm always willing to consider an argument. Present one.

Snark doesn't qualify.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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RumiDude
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PostFri Oct 11, 2019 8:37 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
For real!  I think MtnGoat skipped several steps in his moral reasoning.  *bigethicsfailgrins*

Rumi

I'm always willing to consider an argument. Present one.

Snark doesn't qualify.

For someone that regularly employs snark, you are always asking others not to employ it.

MtnGoat wrote:
The moral fingerprint is that their impacts accrue to you.

Just asserting something doesn't make it so. Even moreso when it comes to stuff like this which is both complex and not well understood. If you think you can make the case, get to it.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Brushwork
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Joined: 18 Aug 2018
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PostFri Oct 11, 2019 9:17 pm 
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So would some of these conversations occur if they were in person?

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When I grow up I wanna play.
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BigBrunyon
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PostFri Oct 11, 2019 11:07 pm 
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RumiDude wrote:
Just asserting something doesn't make it so.

It does when you precede it by saying here's the deal.

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forest gnome
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Joined: 24 Apr 2003
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PostSat Oct 12, 2019 7:17 am 
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complex? not really its stupid simple for all you who post on SENSITIVE semi accessible area's..

are you all frigiing BLIND??...CHOPPED TREES, fire pits in the meadow's...dogshit and human toilet paper EVERYWHERE....

dead fish guts and heads in the clean outlet creek.(PLEASE throw those guts in the deep water, the other fish eat them)

20 people with music is not what I want to see in the pristine areas near popular lakes...I do expect that at those popular area's have all that and more...but the amazing thing about the n.w. is that we can go a short distance to very PRISTINE area's...THAT sh## IS OVER WHEN YOU POST ON AMAZING and easy access area's...frigging amateurs!

NO ONE HAS ACTUALLY given a good reason to post reports when visiting sensitive area's ......to 12,000 people here or on social media...'I just wanna share" sure aint one....
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MtnGoat
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PostSat Oct 12, 2019 7:49 am 
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RumiDude wrote:
For someone that regularly employs snark, you are always asking others not to employ it.

RumiDude wrote:
Just asserting something doesn't make it so. Even moreso when it comes to stuff like this which is both complex and not well understood. If you think you can make the case, get to it.

Rumi

Oh please, not liking arguments does not make them snark.

You claimed I skipped steps, but you cannot even make the argument how I did so. You went for the snark, got called, and now evade rather than retracting or explaining your argument.


There's nothing 'complex and demanding' in the argument I just made. When a person does something, they are responsible for doing the something, and it's existence (since it did not exist prior).

When someone else uses what you did, you're partly responsible because you created the thing in question. If you didn't, they couldn't use it to begin with because it would not exist. This isn't complicated.

I never claimed the person is wholly responsible for someone else's choice to visit a place, because of course the party acting on the info is now layering on their responsibility for their choice.

Now, please explain where I skipped steps.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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PostSat Oct 12, 2019 7:52 am 
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Brushwork wrote:
So would some of these conversations occur if they were in person?

LOL...good catch. Maybe! Good fireside and booze chat.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Cyclopath
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PostSat Oct 12, 2019 8:26 am 
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joker wrote:
including for instance repeatedly answering the  same old questions on WH&C, in the belief that we need to help such forums become more fully mature "on-ramps to the outdoors."

I hope this is worth doing.  Do you think it's having an effect on how people behave?

For what it's worth, I refuse to have a Facebook account (and they still want to hire me!), I'm not on Instagram, and I don't post many TRs here because I'm mostly going to places where there's nothing left to say.

I did post one trip report here that got me hate mail.  I didn't realize it was supposed to be a sekret place, it was easy and straightforward to find and hike to.  I'm not the only one with access to satellite photos and some curiosity.

I love the hiking community and I'm glad to be a part of it.  Our one flaw (all people and communities have them) is too much sense of ownership and exclusion of others, about public land.
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MtnGoat
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PostSat Oct 12, 2019 9:15 am 
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the point is not that no one else has access to imagery or maps. This is the equal opportunity shared resource

It's that you focused interest there, negating the process for the path of 'discovering' the spot.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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joker
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PostSat Oct 12, 2019 9:53 am 
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Cyclopath wrote:
joker wrote:
including for instance repeatedly answering the  same old questions on WH&C, in the belief that we need to help such forums become more fully mature "on-ramps to the outdoors."

I hope this is worth doing.  Do you think it's having an effect on how people behave?

Well it's hard to say how much of that sort of effect it's having. But it IS for sure helping answer questions for a bunch of hiking newbies, and given my concern that online on-ramps are generally meager on education (particularly the very broad large scale ones like Instagram and FB; nwh IMO actually has a decent chunk of super accessible/discoverable content on things like safety, gear, technique, etc.) it seems like a worthwhile investment. I'm seeing more other  people doing the  same and somewhat less of the rude and superior replies  when some poor newcomer asks the  same old questions. And I *have* seen that  more people seem willing to speak up about  things like managing one's impacts (both online and out in  the hills) despite the snark and worse that some dish out toward such efforts. The tide has shifted at least a bit  there - which is about  as I'd expect. These things take time. I've also seen  some shift in the approach of most of the modmins, which may or may not relate to people like me chiming in both in public and in messages to them. I do know for sure that my messages to the modmins get more considered attention due to the fact that I'm seen as a contributor of positive and  thoughtful content - more  than one has given me this feedback.

And, perhaps almost as importantly for my own sake, it's given me more insight into the dynamics of this group which is increasingly relevant to the  local hiking  community, like it  or not (and  to be clear I have ambivalence - I see pros and  cons both but believe that in the long term the pros may outweigh the  cons,  but I'm an optimist who believes things such as that community members can influence the  norms of the community ;-) ).

I should  add that I see some people  there who definitely just want to tell people to stop sharing any location info,  and this black-and-white treatment of the  topic certainly makes it harder for people like me as well as for the  LNT.ORG folks who have a more nuanced "think about  the impact first" take on the  topic - there's  a tendency to view ALL of us as simply wanting  to horde the public resource for  ourselves, which I assure you is  not my intent. But I believe that when people like me continue to share our POV (and consistently back it up with generosity with various types  of info sharing  including the sort of location sharing  that has survived the "think about  it first"  test), it gives "cover"  for others who may have otherwise kept silent do the same. I can't prove this is  happening but I know from much experience as well as sociological studies in other  domains that this dynamic is likely happening here too.

And yeah, I have some former colleagues who  have made a few runs at my joining them at FB. I don't think that's  gonna  happen for various reasons at this  point, including  that  I  don't have a passion to help harness attention for the  purpose of selling ads...
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MtnGoat
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PostSat Oct 12, 2019 10:26 am 
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Good post Joker.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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