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Cyclopath
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PostTue Oct 15, 2019 8:03 pm 
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borank wrote:
I think the moral aspect comes from each person recognizing the need to create the least impact, for the sake of the wilderness, and with respect to the law. ANYTHING that creates additional impact has a negative effect on the "resource values," on the directive of the wilderness managers and thus, a person's "moral values."

Did you stop hiking for this reason?
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Cyclopath
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PostTue Oct 15, 2019 8:13 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Cyclopath wrote:
What's the moral fingerprint of helping fellow hikers?

My mom taught me to share.

The moral fingerprint is that their impacts accrue to you.

Sharing is great, but it still comes with impacts.

In another thread, you were saying that instead of reducing parking, USFS should make new parking lots (on Eightmile and maybe Icicle Roads).  Because the people want them, to be able to hike.  I'm confused how you can believe that, and also believe we should withhold information from or fellows who want to hike.  Cutting down trees and bulldozing land for parking is surely a big impact, and allows many more people on the trail to create still more impact, which seems to be why you're against sharing information with them.
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markweth
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PostWed Oct 16, 2019 8:35 am 
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Cyclopath wrote:
believe we should withhold information from or fellows who want to hike.

I don't think anyone is advocating withholding information, exactly.

I think what is being discussed is examining what impact sharing specific information can have on places with limited carrying capacity. It seems a more ethical option is encouraging people to share more broad, rather than specific, information that encourages people to do some research on their own, find the best hike for them or their group, and spread out the impact.
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MtnGoat
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PostWed Oct 16, 2019 8:40 am 
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RumiDude wrote:
I could show plenty. But you would simply deny it. If you don't like it you shouldn't do it yourself. I'd say the same thing to someone 6, 26, or 56.

I can't deny what you can't even demonstrate to begin with. Nor can I not do, what you cannot demonstrate me doing.

You've done a masterful job of demonstrating how to criticize someone over something you can't show, then frontloading the idea that if you do show something, there is no way to justifiably argue otherwise. After all, i'd just deny it!


RumiDude wrote:
If I post a TR I do so to tell my story. That is the purpose. In telling that story I provide truthful information. What another person does with that information is their responsibility, not mine.

What your purpose is in posting a story is not relevant to the fact that you're responsible for the posting. What another person does with that information rests upon the fact that they now have that information, which they would not have from you if you hadn't posted it. By posting, you created your involvement..which is the point of my argument.

I have never argued a poster has sole responsibility for someone else using their info.

I have simply argued that by putting your info in play, your responsibility goes from zero to non zero...and it is that non zero component which deserves consideration.

RumiDude wrote:
As long as the story I tell is truthful, then my "moral fingerprint" ends there. That's old fashioned ethics, plain and simple.

Someone(s) created the reports which created the impacts here...note the direct attribution.
I’m doing this write-up to give back to this fantastic online community, without which we wouldn’t have been able to do this trip.

Note the last half of the sentence in bold. Without the info, they wouldn't have been able to do the trip.

Yet you seem to be consistently arguing trip reports have zero responsibility for impacts, something falsified by the clear attribution here.

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MtnGoat
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PostWed Oct 16, 2019 8:44 am 
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Cyclopath wrote:
In another thread, you were saying that instead of reducing parking, USFS should make new parking lots (on Eightmile and maybe Icicle Roads).  Because the people want them, to be able to hike.  I'm confused how you can believe that, and also believe we should withhold information from or fellows who want to hike.  Cutting down trees and bulldozing land for parking is surely a big impact, and allows many more people on the trail to create still more impact, which seems to be why you're against sharing information with them.

The people heading to the parking lot are already going to that location.

The USFS is a publicly funded entity which should be making sure people have decent access where they want to hike, which is what they pay their taxes for.

How folks choose a destination is a different matter.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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neek
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PostWed Oct 16, 2019 9:10 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Note the last half of the sentence in bold. Without the info, they wouldn't have been able to do the trip.

I noticed that as well.  It's great that the community here helped make the trip possible--the world was made a better place as a result of their enjoyment (despite the injury) and of ours (through their story and photos), and I don't think hordes of copycats are going to descend on that particular route (the specifics of which, of course, were obscured).  It seems to me you are essentially saying "think before you post", which I fully agree with, not just in trip reports but in all online communication.
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MtnGoat
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PostWed Oct 16, 2019 9:25 am 
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Yup. I don't see why this basic thing is so controversial. The idea that responsibility is something to evade, rather than accept and work with, is part of the fundamental problem.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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markweth
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PostWed Oct 16, 2019 9:29 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Yup. I don't see why this basic thing is so controversial. The idea that responsibility is something to evade, rather than accept and work with, is part of the fundamental problem.

Nailed it  up.gif

It is mind-boggling to me that simply suggesting that people be more thoughtful about their potential impact via social media creates such defensiveness.
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RumiDude
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PostWed Oct 16, 2019 10:29 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
I could show plenty. But you would simply deny it. If you don't like it you shouldn't do it yourself. I'd say the same thing to someone 6, 26, or 56.

I can't deny what you can't even demonstrate to begin with.

OK, here ya go:
MtnGoat wrote:
The 'somebody else does it too' argument has never been a valid excuse for your own choices. Not when you're 6, 26, or 56.

MtnGoat wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
If I post a TR I do so to tell my story. That is the purpose. In telling that story I provide truthful information. What another person does with that information is their responsibility, not mine.

What your purpose is in posting a story is not relevant to the fact that you're responsible for the posting. What another person does with that information rests upon the fact that they now have that information, which they would not have from you if you hadn't posted it. By posting, you created your involvement..which is the point of my argument.
I have never argued a poster has sole responsibility for someone else using their info.
I have simply argued that by putting your info in play, your responsibility goes from zero to non zero...and it is that non zero component which deserves consideration.
RumiDude wrote:
As long as the story I tell is truthful, then my "moral fingerprint" ends there. That's old fashioned ethics, plain and simple.

Someone(s) created the reports which created the impacts here...note the direct attribution.
I’m doing this write-up to give back to this fantastic online community, without which we wouldn’t have been able to do this trip.Note the last half of the sentence in bold. Without the info, they wouldn't have been able to do the trip.
Yet you seem to be consistently arguing trip reports have zero responsibility for impacts, something falsified by the clear attribution here.

I am pretty sure you don't understand moral responsibility in any conventional sense. In your sense, a map maker would bear moral responsibility.

The field of Ethics or Moral Philosophy is wide and varied. I am not aware of any major system of Moral Phlosophy that would place any "moral fingerprint", be it ever so small, on a person for writing a trip report.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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joker
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PostWed Oct 16, 2019 10:49 am 
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markweth wrote:
It is mind-boggling to me that simply suggesting that people be more thoughtful about their potential impact via social media creates such defensiveness.

I'm disappointed but not surprised.


RumiDude wrote:
I am not aware of any major system of Moral Phlosophy that would place any "moral fingerprint", be it ever so small, on a person for writing a trip report.

I'll admit that  I'm not much  of a student of ethics, so  I may be missing something obvious. But I'll nonetheless suggest a glance at "consequentialism" as a starting point there...
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Cyclopath
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PostWed Oct 16, 2019 12:14 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
The people heading to the parking lot are already going to that location.

The availability of parking is one of the things that determines how many people go to a location.  If you know there are only 10 spots and you have to arrive before 5 am, you'll go somewhere else - at least most people will.
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slabbyd
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PostThu Oct 17, 2019 8:34 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Someone(s) created the reports which created the impacts here...note the direct attribution.
I’m doing this write-up to give back to this fantastic online community, without which we wouldn’t have been able to do this trip.

Note the last half of the sentence in bold. Without the info, they wouldn't have been able to do the trip.

Last night at a middle school track meet in Bellingham a group of 4 men sitting behind me were excitedly talking about this Exact Trip Report, the amazing emerald lakes and how they were definitely going to get up there next year.  There may be a relatively small group of posters here but the net of viewership seems cast very wide.

Having done the Watson-Blum Traverse (and not posted a TR anywhere) one of the nicest features was the relative lack of way trails and other human impacts.  It would be a shame for it to become another Ptarmigan Traverse yet that seems to be where it's headed.  If you visit a beautiful location, where part of the appeal is that it is not crowded and still somewhat pristine, consider that the best way to maintain those attributes is to not post publicly available TRs about it.
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markweth
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PostThu Oct 17, 2019 9:05 am 
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slabbyd wrote:
MtnGoat wrote:
Someone(s) created the reports which created the impacts here...note the direct attribution.
I’m doing this write-up to give back to this fantastic online community, without which we wouldn’t have been able to do this trip.

Note the last half of the sentence in bold. Without the info, they wouldn't have been able to do the trip.

Last night at a middle school track meet in Bellingham a group of 4 men sitting behind me were excitedly talking about this Exact Trip Report, the amazing emerald lakes and how they were definitely going to get up there next year.  There may be a relatively small group of posters here but the net of viewership seems cast very wide.

Having done the Watson-Blum Traverse (and not posted a TR anywhere) one of the nicest features was the relative lack of way trails and other human impacts.  It would be a shame for it to become another Ptarmigan Traverse yet that seems to be where it's headed.  If you visit a beautiful location, where part of the appeal is that it is not crowded and still somewhat pristine, consider that the best way to maintain those attributes is to not post publicly available TRs about it.

up.gif  up.gif  up.gif

Excellent example of what the crux of this conversation is about. Trip reports/geotagged photos/specific location in photo captions/etc. do not exists in a vacuum. They have the potential to influence where people plan trips. This has been demonstrated to cause issues when too many people end up in fragile areas with limited carrying capacity to absorb significant increases in visitation.

Quote:
If you visit a beautiful location, where part of the appeal is that it is not crowded and still somewhat pristine, consider that the best way to maintain those attributes is to not post publicly available TRs about it.

This is what myself and many others in this thread are advocating people do. Make a voluntary decision to use some discretion in what you post on social media.
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catsp
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PostThu Oct 17, 2019 11:09 am 
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I will answer many of these questions for you. Like most posters, I'm confident that I'm correct, and like most posters I'm only posting in order to try to inform and educate those who are wrong. Unlike most others, I'm actually the one who is correct, so misguided efforts to convince me otherwise are ill-informed and, indeed, misguided.

1. Does social media have an impact on trail/route usage? Duh.

2. Does posting pictures in the pic of the day thread count as part of that? Duh.

3. Is the impact from social media negative or positive? Both, duh x2.

4. Is the "net" impact positive or negative? Unknown and one of the things that is truly arguable.

5. Do many posters love to deride the "selfie" taking people? Yes.

6. Do many of the trip reports here include one or more "selfies"? Umm, yeah.

7. Is one component of virtually every trip report "look at me, look what I did!" Yes (to varying extents).

8. Is one component of most pictures in the pic of the day thread "look at me, look what I did!" Yes.

9. Is that bad? Not necessarily.  9-1. Are you sure, cuz the wording makes it sound bad? I'm sure.

10. Is a person "responsible" for the effects their trip reports or pics may have? "Responsible" is probably not the best word to use. Maybe ask whether people should consider the effect their trip report or pic might have before posting.

11. Should people consider the effect their trip report or pic might have before posting? It doesn't really matter. If the person's desire for "sharing" (i.e., attention) is sufficiently high they will post it anyways and do or say something to rationalize it ("my description is insufficient to anyone not in the 'club'", "it's just this one report", "I've compensated for it by my efforts at educating the unwashed", etc.)

12. Isn't a large part of this argument about "extent", people arguing that what one person posts is too much as opposed to what they post being "different" or "just right"? Ding, ding, ding! Winner!

13. Is there anywhere left to find solitude? Okay, you made me laugh with that one - excellent work! Have a bonus question.

Bonus: Are you a hypocrite? Why, I never!...How dare you!... I'm taking your bonus question away!
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MtnGoat
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PostThu Oct 17, 2019 12:07 pm 
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Fun post! That covers the bases

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